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Post by SWMan on Jan 25, 2022 23:03:14 GMT -6
Found my leaflet from a couple years back, website was farmhydraulics.ca which doesn't work and the number was out of service. So called a couple places and had best luck with Brandon Bearing. The scan he emailed me showed a PC707 crimper for about $6900 with all the dies and the pricing from a couple years back showed $4200 with a further discount if a $3000 hose/fitting order was made. I guess I'll go in person to see exactly what the story is, but they at least know what they are doing there which is half the battle. This I believe would be the crimper that is at most equipment dealers around here.
The package from the place that is no longer operational was about 10K for a crimper/cabinet/ hose and fittings for 1/4" to 1".
I just think of the price of new equipment when I make a shop upgrade like this, then it seems cheeeeep!
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Post by Albertabuck on Jan 26, 2022 15:18:10 GMT -6
I thought I'd give this a try again and now things work. Thanks Beer, you really need to pass the hat here. Since we got talking about a few different types of hose ends, thought I'd post a pic so anyone who don't know what one looks like or the difference between them can see it. First pic is of several different ends. First from left are compression style. These are the earlier type of crimp on ends that began to lose favor and see limited use about ten years ago. Second is the newer style crimp on ones called bite to wire. They use a thicker and shorter body. Its due to this thickness that the older compression style crimpers like mine will not work on bite to wire, nor will the dies give proper contact either. Third is the screw on replaceable ends which CTS brought up. The outer part is left hand thread onto the hose, then the inner part it screwed into it compressing the hose between the two parts. And lastly, something that the youngsters may have never seen but used to be carried in most tractor tool boxes along with an axe, is the clamp on type end and splice fittings. I should have taken the one apart, but there is a barb on the one part that goes inside the hose, then you install the two clamp halves and tighten the bolts to crimp things together. Used to see them used lots, they were intended as an emergency repair, but a lot of folks used them permanently. I like for emergency repairs and hoard them. I'll buy a pile of old crappy hose just to get a few lol. Even have a few new ones still in bags from the final days of Macleods hardware. And second pic is just part of my assortment of fittings, maybe like a quarter of them, but is mostly my crimp on ends. What you see is in the thousands. Its not a cheap hobby. Make sure you covered for it on your insurance.   |
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Post by northernfarmer on Jan 26, 2022 18:59:45 GMT -6
AB, the far right upper fitting in your laid out fitting photo, what method did you use to assemble that as I tried using one of those years ago and while I did get it to work it was not assembled in as it should have been. My problem was getting the second barbed end into the other section of hose because the first hose was free and could push ( more like slam ) the face of the barb onto a piece of wood to get it shoved in, the second one meant trying to push the two hoses together and that was not working well. I never used that style again due to that struggle and instead used the reusable type we had discussed in this thread ( the second from the right fitting ) . I would have to go and look and see if I had any more of that older style repair unit that I had bought at the time.
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Post by Albertabuck on Jan 26, 2022 20:46:30 GMT -6
LOL yep NF the second one can be a PITA with lots of swearing and blood spurting from numerous pokes thru the skin from the wires lol
What I do is get the one in, then install the clamps on that side, then jam it somehow, have used a pipe wrench behind the clamps like with the hose between the jaws loosely a few times as kind of a holder, so you can put some effort behind pushing on the second one. A bit of oil helps a lot too same as with the screw on ones. Having a second person to help hold things is a huge plus too. Since I have several of them both, I hardly ever use the thru spices, easier to use two of the single ones and connect them with another fitting as they only come in male NPT. Usually to get them apart you need to split the hose along the barb with grinder or cutoff wheel, once smushed into place, they bite pretty damn hard.
I seldom leave them installed, its normally an emergency thing to get done or whatever, then I make or repair the hose properly
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Post by farmshop on Jan 26, 2022 21:20:17 GMT -6
Hydraulic hose crimper is one tool I never second guess having. When we are chopping hay or corn and have a dozen guys standing there for a blown hose even if the store was open it still shoot an hour or 2 to run to town. I also like being able to test fit before crimping if trying to line up 2 elbow fittings
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Post by northernfarmer on Jan 26, 2022 21:43:33 GMT -6
Yes I figured you would know the pain I referred to, I didn't know what to expect until I used one of those units and then came the nasty surprises. Of course it was on press drill out in a field and not a good spot where the hose had rubbed and blew out. I had to cut with a hack saw as I had nothing else and this was way before the days of zip disc and battery tools, never mind creating sparks on an oil filled hose and oil everywhere else would be far from ideal. Yup, bad first experience and swore I would never repeat that ordeal. As to the other screw on/in style, I got educated from a hydraulic shop in town that had made me up a fuel hose for a tractor as their favourite oil for installation was some oil additive that was thicker then 80/90 gear oil and they coated the insert good and the inside of the hose and screwed it in. So I have used gear oil and thought that seemed to work good, get those fine threads lubed up too and install. What did not work good was using something like WD40 as the insert would grip on the inner hose and shred it. Also found out that removing even a freshly installed reusable end is more then likely going to ruin the inside of the hose and have to cut that section off before installing again.
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CTS2
Junior Member
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Post by CTS2 on Jan 27, 2022 5:03:14 GMT -6
OK no prob, I get it, you are very passionate about these fittings...to each their own. As I have said I use them now and then, time and a place for everything. As NF mentioned they are common in lower pressure situations,for example in the transport industry, but have lost favor on air systems to synflex in recent years. Simply put, the reason that the reusable fittings are not commonly used is, and perhaps this is a North America issue, where there is a large variance in hose type and construction and overall cost. In my experience, reusable fittings are roughly double the cost of crimp on, and there is a lot less variety of fitting type available, as like for special applications. As you say, the correct fitting must be used on the right hose. WIth reusable, you have one choice per. With crimp on, there are several, you simply adjust your crimper accordingly. As in one crimp on fitting does the work of several reusable. An issue instantly that surfaces there is the huge increase in cost and volume of inventory to do the same job. For example, simply R1 and R2 3/8 hose require two different resuable, one for each hose, crimp on use the same fitting on both hoses. With crimp on, a simple adjustment of the crimper solves the problem. Now multiply that over several different sizes and styles, the increase in additional cost to have inventory is huge, particularly in a smaller organization like a farm. Its simply one of the main reasons why its industry standard to use crimp on. That and build time, after all time is money too. And other reasons, another is there just simply isn't the selection of reusable that there is in other styles. Its not some conspiracy that they see limited use, there are reasons for it. But by all means, if one wants to use nothing but reusable ones, go for it. No its not a difficult concept, it comes down to practicality. Thats why crimp on is industry standard. When you say R1 and R2 hose, are you talking about single layer of braid and double layer of braid? You are partially correct. But you actually only need to have a different outer ferrule. The inner stem is interchangeable because the hose bore size is the same. Check out the photo of the explanation chart in my catalogue. However, in the interests of reducing inventory, most people, even the hose repair shops, only carry the double braid hose anyway. Even though it is higher pressure than needed in many applications, especially in the smaller sizes, the reduced stock often outweighs the extra cost of the double braid. However for the planned replacement of a lot of hoses, single braid and fittings to suit could be ordered in.  |
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CTS2
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Post by CTS2 on Jan 27, 2022 5:27:14 GMT -6
Had another thought while out with the cattle...what application are these hoses on that you are requiring to repair or replace them often enough that reusable fittings are your choice? The frequency suggested seems odd. I run several machines that are 40-50 years old still fitted with original hoses and crimped on fittings, hoses I made up myself 20 years ago still perfect...three things lead to failure of a hose, deterioration, damage or abuse, or improper installation of ends...so these hoses that you are repairing with the respectable ends, why are they failing in the first place? Not being a dick, I'm genuinely curious. Thanks Understandable question. I am not replacing multiple times. In the agricultural world I can't recall ever replacing a hose I have already made once, for a second time. In a previous career as a maintenance fitter on railway maintenance equipment where shock loading and abrasion were unavoidable, yes replacing the same hoses regularly was normal. In the middle of the Nullarbor Plain, (look it up) hundreds of miles from the nearest hose shop or crimping machine. That's where I learned how good reusable fittings are. But, machinery on my farm tends to still be in use for many decades, so maybe down the track I will be replacing them but not yet. Reusing multiple times is not my sole reason. It's simply a side benefit. If something gets caught and the hose is mechanically damaged, you may find yourself replacing it prematurely, etc. But it's not the normal situation. It does offer flexibility, if you are caught without the right fitting to replace a hose on your header, you can steal one from a hose on your cultivator, and replace the cultivator hose at a later stage. Fix it out in the paddock. Fit a new end onto an old hose (if the rubber hasn't perished) while it is still on the machine if it's a long hose. If the 90 degree doesn't line up, just turn it a bit. No outlay of $10,000 or whatever for a crimping machine. Just a couple of adjustable wrenches and you're good to go. So many benefits. Sometimes the old hose, (finally failed after many years, not one of mine) will have the correct reusable fittings on it. Sometimes not. However I will say that incompatible brands will often work to get you out of trouble. I do not condone this practice and only do it as a last resort and repair properly as soon as practicable, but sometimes you have just got to do what you've got to do. I've only done it rarely and not had failures. The clamp and bolts type of temporary repair - I've never used one and never seen one on a hose. I've seen them in for sale on the counter of hose shops with horrendously expensive price tags. I don't think anyone buys them. The only outfits that could afford them would be mining companies, but I'm pretty sure they would be too scared to use them. |
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Post by Albertabuck on Jan 28, 2022 22:01:35 GMT -6
OK no prob, I get it, you are very passionate about these fittings...to each their own. As I have said I use them now and then, time and a place for everything. As NF mentioned they are common in lower pressure situations,for example in the transport industry, but have lost favor on air systems to synflex in recent years. Simply put, the reason that the reusable fittings are not commonly used is, and perhaps this is a North America issue, where there is a large variance in hose type and construction and overall cost. In my experience, reusable fittings are roughly double the cost of crimp on, and there is a lot less variety of fitting type available, as like for special applications. As you say, the correct fitting must be used on the right hose. WIth reusable, you have one choice per. With crimp on, there are several, you simply adjust your crimper accordingly. As in one crimp on fitting does the work of several reusable. An issue instantly that surfaces there is the huge increase in cost and volume of inventory to do the same job. For example, simply R1 and R2 3/8 hose require two different resuable, one for each hose, crimp on use the same fitting on both hoses. With crimp on, a simple adjustment of the crimper solves the problem. Now multiply that over several different sizes and styles, the increase in additional cost to have inventory is huge, particularly in a smaller organization like a farm. Its simply one of the main reasons why its industry standard to use crimp on. That and build time, after all time is money too. And other reasons, another is there just simply isn't the selection of reusable that there is in other styles. Its not some conspiracy that they see limited use, there are reasons for it. But by all means, if one wants to use nothing but reusable ones, go for it. No its not a difficult concept, it comes down to practicality. Thats why crimp on is industry standard. When you say R1 and R2 hose, are you talking about single layer of braid and double layer of braid? You are partially correct. But you actually only need to have a different outer ferrule. The inner stem is interchangeable because the hose bore size is the same. Check out the photo of the explanation chart in my catalogue. However, in the interests of reducing inventory, most people, even the hose repair shops, only carry the double braid hose anyway. Even though it is higher pressure than needed in many applications, especially in the smaller sizes, the reduced stock often outweighs the extra cost of the double braid. However for the planned replacement of a lot of hoses, single braid and fittings to suit could be ordered in. <button disabled="" class="c-attachment-insert--linked o-btn--sm">Attachment Deleted</button> Yes R1 and 2 refer to number of wires, but there is also different styles of hose as well, where you run into different thickness in the outer layers. So again, a simple adjustment on the crimper compensates for this and you still use the same fitting. With yours, you require different ones. And yes, again you are correct, you only need to change out the outer barrel, but its still an additional item to have to stock in order to repair on short notice. Unfortunately still a lot of manufacturers in NA that still use single wire. As I said before, I don't buy anything but 2 at min. Do have some 4 and higher as well for special apps. I get where you are coming from and for someone not doing a lot, yea nothing wrong with it. As I said, I have fair stock of those and use them myself where they best fit the application. But they are more screwing around and easy to miss match if one is not very careful. I can't speak for others, but I used operate a repair shop off the farm here, still do a bit now and then, so that justified the initial cost as I used to do a lot of hose repairs, and again, I bought most everything basically second hand from dealers or stores closing down at a huge discount off retail, so its not like I went out and spent thousands buying new. But yea I have still thousands invested in what I have, but what I have makes most rural hyd shops look pathetic, again I have most of that for my own use, I am building and rebuilding equipment constantly, I run all old shit, but I keep it all running tickityboo, and to do that its cheaper for me to make my own hoses ect than go to town. And I like to be able to walk to the shop and make a hose and back to silage pile when its -40C in less than half an hour, things like that is another reason I have all of it. Its the convenience most of all. And its getting expensive to have hoses made, there is a charge now for each fitting. Many shops will not crimp a fitting onto a used hose anymore. And many shops simply don't stock some of the common fittings seen often in ag equipment. I'm the guy who is buying the five gallon pails of used fittings at the dealership sales, yea I might have 50 of this and 40 of that, but I also have some real oddball stuff, and them the ones that come into play when you are replacing steel lines with hoses and such or breeding things together to keep a machine running when its balls to the wall. And sometimes I'm doing it for a neighbor or such as well and I like having those kind of resources at my finger tips. Once you've had them you never want to be far away again lol. I always tell folks do what works for you. And I think you are as well. I'm not telling anyone what to do, I'm just telling guys what I do and have and they can make their own choices. Like you, I have a lot of experience in heavy duty as well, truck and oilfield related, dealt a lot with pickers and such, yea some hoses we made with the replaceable ends, some we had made for us with crimped. It depended on application. At one time the only good quality swivel type fitting to use in the turret of a picker was the reusable type, then someone come out with a high quality crimp on one, and it come down to dollars in the end, it was cheaper to have the hoses made and bought in than to make them ourselves. When we did inventory a couple years later several dozen of those reusable ends ended up coming home with me, being the resident farmer, anytime there was stuff like that to get rid of my name always come up for some reason lol. Sad thing is, have never used one of those, rather specialized critters, several sizes as for the topping and telescopic cylinders and also larger for winch, but then I do have to rework my truck mounted man lift, who knows might use a few there! Thats interesting you can still get those clamp on emergency repair fittings down there, they went the way of the dodo bird here about 30 years ago or more. Was a smaller company that made them as I recall, I am thinking Monarch, not even sure if they exsit anymore. Used to make cylinders and also were big in well and water system components like pumps ect. |
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Post by northernfarmer on Jan 28, 2022 23:05:59 GMT -6
AB, I took a look through my small assortment of fittings and unless something got put somewhere else I only have two of those end to end clamp fittings. One states on it made in Canada and 3/8. The other doesn't say where its made but I believe it says R50. It looks larger then 1/2 hose somehow but yet that is what it should have been bought for. I would be surprised if I will ever even attempt to use them, I'd go for the reusable ones I have a few of if I feel it fits the outer hose diameter and that of course is the dicey part, guessing and hoping. The reusables I have that were bought for hydraulic hose are all male pipe thread so nothing fancy there, no ORB etc, other then the JIC fitting style I used on the truck for fuel or transmission cooler lines.
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Post by Albertabuck on Jan 29, 2022 11:03:16 GMT -6
NF good morning, I would imagine there would have been others making those fittings, very well could be that in the end it was Monarch, I have some with the name embossed in them and Macleods did sell other Monarch hyd stuff like the cylinders. I'll have to look at my new ones still in the bags. I have a few here for 3/4 hose, one thing about them fittings is they are a bulky hunk of cast whatever they made of, but ultimately for the period here in NA they were common place, hose was made different and most was only single wire. Been a few times over the years where it was a bit of challenge to put one on a thicker type of hose, but just as a temporary fix I got done what was needed. Its that proper matching up of the reusable ones to the hose where often the issue arises and I have seen others have wrecks as result. I run into it myself. But there again, if one had stock of them like CTS suggests and is diligent, that problem is then overcome. I know myself I have bred one onto a hose and knew it wasn't quite right, but admittedly I don't have a huge selection of them. I would probably be a lot more into them if our hose was more standardized, outer layers are made different and some are thicker than others, and especially with older hose, I find they don't hold all the time, and its not often fault of the fitting or fit, but the hose itself. The ones with the thicker rubber outer layer, see the whole outer layer come off along with the fitting. When installed on hose with the fiber type outer layer construction, they bite a lot better and the hose holds together too. This is not unlike the fabric wire braid hose common seen for fuel and air systems as you mentioned before. Was funny I was thinking while outside earlier, I mentioned about "hoarding" those clamp on repair ones...my thoughts were that hoarding probably goes further than those and extends well beyond hyd fittings too...my brother never fails to point it out to me but I guess take things to a level most don't. For me it all goes back years ago and as I say, I know what its like to be broke. And those years of doing without did something to me that developed that need to stockpile resources that one uses often whenever I can for just a few dollars. I guess some like their booze, others dope and whatever else, me I build inventory of parts...hope no one asks about vbelts or roller chain, we could have another go lol. One thing when I'm loading up after a sale somewhere, those who regularly who hope I have that particular thing they need never say anything negative, but often the ones with the smartass comments are the ones who have nothing and get everything from the dealer, like the penguins I just smile and wave  |
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Post by northernfarmer on Jan 29, 2022 11:49:20 GMT -6
I could be wrong but have a feeling these two clamp on joiners came from Princess, probably a matter of walking down an isle many moons ago and seeing them and thinking that might be a handy thing to have on hand, then after using one and the hassles I went through I decided lets try the reusable ones instead and I have some of the ( not sure what those fittings are called ) that swivel in the sense of being able to connect two male pipe threads together without turning either of the hoses to accomplish it ( the one end of the adapter fitting has the internal taper to fit into the taper of the reusable fitting .. jic angle ? and seals when the fitting is snugged up ) . As long as the hose plays nice with the reusable ends its a doable fix right on the piece of equipment to get a person going.
Oh yes, old sun baked hose that the outer rubber is brittle crumbling crap when one starts working with it and realize there is no way around it, that whole hose has to be tossed into the garbage and a new hose installed. From what I recall I think most hose on older farm equipment was the plain rubber outer with no structure built into it like a lot of newer hose has with the rubber infused spiral wrap layer they manufacture it with. A few things are against single braid hose ( depends on the diameter as well as small hose has a higher working pressure then larger hose ) as for one I think low end crap Chinese companies are manufacturing a pile of the single braid hose and the quality as well as quality control just isn't there vs hose made years ago. The other issue is newer tractors have steadily increased in their relief pressures and oil volume and single braid or well used older hose can't hack that pressure spike when it its the end of the cylinder stroke or hydraulic valve stop.
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CTS2
Junior Member
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Post by CTS2 on Jan 31, 2022 5:23:17 GMT -6
Yes, use whatever you like. I don't mind. If someone wants to spend $10,000 on a crimper it doesn't worry me. I just normally suggest the reusable fittings because a surprising amount of people don't comprehend that they exist. Here's a link to the emergency kits I mentioned that I've never used. They quoted me $660 for the 5 piece kit. www.hosepatch.com/collections/in-field-hydraulic-hose-repair-clamps |
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Post by Albertabuck on Jan 31, 2022 9:56:41 GMT -6
Thanks for that link CTS, interesting design, can't believe what they are asking for that kit, and that they only make a thru splice one.
I don't know why they would have stopped making them here unless it was a possible liability thing. The time they disappeared is when pressures were going up towards 3000psi, far cry from what it was when they come along. And I have seen myself particularly on older type of hose with a thick rubber layer, where it really didn't take much to blow the fitting off stripping the hose down to the wire.
One thing is with yours the clamps are made of stainless, here they were some kind of cast or potmetal with a steel barb. I have seen them with half the clamp cracked so they weren't indestructible if one got carried away installing them on a hose they didn't really fit.
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Post by northernfarmer on Feb 3, 2022 18:48:09 GMT -6
Yes, use whatever you like. I don't mind. If someone wants to spend $10,000 on a crimper it doesn't worry me. I just normally suggest the reusable fittings because a surprising amount of people don't comprehend that they exist. Here's a link to the emergency kits I mentioned that I've never used. They quoted me $660 for the 5 piece kit. www.hosepatch.com/collections/in-field-hydraulic-hose-repair-clampsAs AB had stated, also what I had for a joint repair was much the same as what he talked about in being a steel center barbed core assembly to fit inside the hose and then half clam shell pieces for "each" hose end rather then one whole assembly that clamped both hoses simultaneously. I believe there were two machined shoulders near the center of the inner core so that each half clam set hooked behind their respective center shoulder and the material for the half clams was indeed some type of aluminum but not machined, it would have been a pot metal formed material and so nothing noteworthy quality wise and as the nuts were tightened on the half clams they dug into that soft metal. I never saw a pressure rating on them but I highly doubt they were made for today's higher presssures. What you linked CTS2 is a vastly superior system and materials, yes the cost is outrageous but its in a whole other class compared to what I have a couple of units still kicking around. |
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