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Post by Beerwiser on Dec 16, 2021 13:39:28 GMT -6
Since Ken brought up hitches, what are you guys using for hitch pins? I started using the cheapest pins I could find, made in CHina even better. My theory is I would sooner have the pin get beat to shit then having a good pin that beat the drawbar up.
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Post by Albertabuck on Dec 16, 2021 14:07:48 GMT -6
That can get to be a diverse collection there Beer lol.
Most of my fleet is older Deere, probably one of the few who runs the original hammerstraps and pin hold downs along with OEM pins.
Each tractor carries a multitude of different pins for different applications. I am anal about only having the pin go thru one side of a double tongue hitch, as in my drawbars are always double with the hammerstrap, so on the implements if they still have a double, then a short enough pin gets used so it only goes thru the top one. Surprising how many don't realize what actually breaks pins and hammerstraps...well its when you go thru all four....
Most of my smaller pins 1" or less are made from sucker rod. 1 1/4 ones are from polish rods. Both have good steel content and while tough, they will bend if things get out of hand.
Many larger ones are made from cylinder shafts, as in hydraulic rams. Some also are from driveline shafting and a few from sinker rods, those are the 1 1/2 sucker type rods used for weight to drive the down hole pumps between formations. Have to watch with some, once hard surfacing cracks up on surface, they can start to wear quick. Run into the same with a pin I made for the 6030 out of a king pin because I was too cheap to buy the OEM. It went thousands of hours before the surface let go, then in the matter of a couple hundred almost cut itself in half.
Few like in the swinging drawbars of the Deeres are Gr12 3/4 Cat head bolts cut down to length. You will never find a "pin" with "threads" around here lol.
Even the Versy has the original hold down set up, made a pin to fit and that works with the latch.
That covers the basics I guess, do have others specially made for specific applications. Too many to list really. I guess I am kind of particular with things like that, as I also carry quite the collection in the pickups as well lol.
One issue I have run into since added the Versy to the line, is had to change out a few clevises for the large pin for it, but then when I use the Deere's slightly smaller pin on a different tractor, wears the damm clevis. Too many sizes at play really. Have actually thought of bushing the Versy and the Kirovets down to the same as Deere and be done with it.
Also many of the smaller implements have had the hole size increased, like for example the square balers, they will take the 1 1/16 pins from the 30 and 4020 over the original 1" hole New Holland had.
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Post by kenmb on Dec 16, 2021 16:06:02 GMT -6
I get where you are coming from AB, I may be off base on some of my thinking so don't mind getting specific. And your question is why I was wondering if there was an online place that I can't seem to find. It would make my life easier if I could measure up what I was intending, go online and order 4 PC's of bushings I need and have them show up in the mailbox a week later. It looks like I can't do that so I need to go to a local metal shop each time I need something. And since each application is likely to need a different bushing, then it is a number of trips. And if there is a minimum order charge, then I need to plan other stuff around that one order.
As for hitch pins, I bought a few recent ones from the assortments on the wall of the Ag suppliers. Have other ones made of hyd cylinder shafts, and others made from God knows what. Perhaps softer pins are a better idea. Have at least one dad made probably 30 years ago about 1.5" Dia from the old 4wd that is half wore through. The pin wear likely saved the implement and tractor from wearing that much more.
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Post by bob123 on Dec 16, 2021 18:09:36 GMT -6
I think that hydraulic cylinders are a bit too brittle to use as serious hitch pins. Cousin had one snap on the graincart
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Post by Albertabuck on Dec 16, 2021 19:13:19 GMT -6
I think that hydraulic cylinders are a bit too brittle to use as serious hitch pins. Cousin had one snap on the graincart Excellent point Bob, and yes you are correct, some cylinders with hardened shafts are very brittle, however most lighter duty are only surface hardened, its why most ag cylinders will bend without snapping right off. They make good pins actually, very much the same as OEM. You can tell the difference when you cut them, kind of like looking at the rings of a tree. One needs to be careful when repurposing materials. Another good example is back in my rig moving days lots of guys used old S cams for deck pins. you could tell who had them because they were the ones that snapped off under side load when the skids were pushing on them hard. Thats never something one wanted happening and usually required some assistance with the pole truck to rectify lol |
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Post by northernfarmer on Dec 16, 2021 19:57:54 GMT -6
I had never used an S cam shaft for a hitch pin but have seen it done although I don't think it was for a high load application, apparently from your experience AB they are not well suited !. I had made a pin years ago from ram material I got at a scrap yard from a smaller industrial cylinder and it has an outer very hard layer under the chrome but when I ground a spot clear to drill a hole through it, it drilled ok. That pin held up fantastic for the type of application it was used for compared to the store bought pins that would wear something awful. I've wondered through the years as to what material hitch pins etc are made from and was looking this evening at what I might find for information stumbling around the internet and there was a comment about hydraulic cylinder rams as one material type but got the impression its not really the correct material for a highly side loaded pin. The mention was that a grade 1045 chrome plated rod was typical non hardened rod and that 1050 was a case hardened rod which is probably what I was working with in making that pin. Then I came across more what I was looking for and that was pin application material and one was 4140 that is then induction hardened for pin use or another very similar material property wise to it was EN19 but again its being heat treated for use as a pin. I think one would have to talk to someone that really knows their metal and if there is such a thing as a material one can buy and is already heat treated ready for use. Of course then becomes the problem if any welding was done on the pin to make the top stop plate as that will damage the controlled heat treating and why pins would more then likely be heat treated after they are tapered, any holes drilled through and welded on. Those pins with the red plastic coating on top say they are grade 5 , the blue plastic coated pins say grade 8 but again I think there is more to it then comparing a number we associate to a bolt. Those grade 8 blue pins, I read where it said they are EN19 heat treated.
Have I helped answer anything as I stumble along myself, probably not ! LOL.
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Post by northernfarmer on Dec 16, 2021 20:16:28 GMT -6
Since Ken brought up hitches, what are you guys using for hitch pins? I started using the cheapest pins I could find, made in CHina even better. My theory is I would sooner have the pin get beat to shit then having a good pin that beat the drawbar up.
If you mean the tractor drawbar itself and lets say it is a typical tractor with a hammer strap/clevis style hitch, lets take a JD four wheel drive tractor for example ( have not looked at the latest series though to see how they are made ) that incorporates a squarish plate welded onto the hitch pin for the head end and what that accomplishes is to prevent the pin from being able to rotate very far in either direction as one turns with the implements so it helps minimize the constant turning/rubbing effect within the tractors draw bar to pin surfaces. That leaves the pin itself where the implement hitch pulls on to wear as well as the implement single tongue itself. I've seen sometimes where someone is using an undersized drawbar pin in order to fit the implement that has a smallish hole in its hitch, do very much of that and its going to show up in tractor drawbar wear.
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Post by kevlar on Dec 16, 2021 20:31:12 GMT -6
Last spring I had to get a draw pin for our New Holland 9880, seems to be kind of an odd size, not many places had one, and I almost $hit myself when they told me the price, so went to a local welding shop and he made me one for a lot less $$$. Not hardened but will still last for a long time, likely as long as we have the tractor.
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Post by skfarmboy on Dec 17, 2021 8:27:23 GMT -6
While I was taking a machine shop class I made a draw pin for one of our John Deere tractors. I used 4140 steel, did the required machining and then heat treated the pin. Once that was finished the instructor and I did a rockwell hardness test on the pin I made and an OEM JD pin. My pin was good but the JD pin was better, the instructor was quite impressed with the OEM pin quality. Those old JD draw pins just last forever.
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Post by northernfarmer on Dec 17, 2021 10:42:50 GMT -6
It would be interesting to know what JD's secret formula was, what raw material they started with and how the heat treating process was done as their pins certainly out performed some other brands of tractor.
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Post by kenmb on Dec 17, 2021 10:46:58 GMT -6
In line with what I think is the thinking behind Beerwisers question, a few years back I started to question if I really want to be using the hardest, most long lasting pin I can get. This thinking is coming from noticing my hitch wear. Of all the things on the farm that a guy can list that is the easiest to change due to excessive wear, I would think a hitch pin is #1. Granted the repairing wear on the hitch itself is not that much of a problem, but it would seem that if a guy was to choose which item was of harder steel, then it would be best to have the pin of lower hardness.
Sure, can find a couple 1" ish diameter pins around here that are bent but those are most likely from a stuck implement with single tongue and wrapping a chain around a pin half way inserted. Yes, guilty of that. But generally speaking, is a soft metal pin in a clevis style hitch really an issue.
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Post by Albertabuck on Dec 17, 2021 11:06:45 GMT -6
I dunno I have a couple tractors here with @14k hours, and still have their original OEM pins which are still halfassed snug in the holes, now the load carrying surface is wore some, especially on the 4620 from the round balers, but if one uses the proper pin, the majority of movement should be happening between the pin and clevis or tongue. Which is obviously happening on mine. Sure the 4850 has spent a shit load of its life feeding cows, but it knows its way around the fields too. Same with that old 46.
With that said, I don't think all drawbars are equal either. Like for example, the Versy had replaceable bushings installed from new in drawbar, was intended they be replaced regularly. You do not see this with Deere for example.
Running a smaller pin than the hole will cause rapid wear, as the load is not spread out as originally designed to have happen.
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Post by Albertabuck on Dec 17, 2021 11:19:11 GMT -6
Just another thought I had and that is nine out of ten used tractors you see at a sale ect are missing the hammerstrap. When I used to work on other's tractors, can honestly say I don't ever remember once having one in the shop with the OEM pin, everyone had some bent up bolt or such and those were the same ones with the oblonged holes in the drawbar. So might be a combination of issues at play. I honestly believe that mine are in the good shape they are because things were kept intact and always the largest pins possible were used, and most machines were modified to accommodate them.
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Post by farmshop on Dec 18, 2021 22:06:08 GMT -6
As for pins I have bout oem pins but Deere pissed me off when I bought the last one for our 8960. We were only getting 2-3 years out of them and the price keeps going up so I just bought a regular old red handled hitch pin for 1/4 the price
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Post by Beerwiser on Dec 19, 2021 20:05:17 GMT -6
Well did I ever open up a can of worms. Both tractors have the hammer strap in place and I guess I should have mentioned that I only run softer pins on implements that have no real draft to them. Any ground engagement tools have harder pins that are matched to at least the tractor drawbar. The only exception is a case cultivator that has a smaller pin that the tractor.
So I am interested in haying equipment basically. The 986 has spent most of its life on square balers, bale wagons, haybine and manure spreader. Draw draw is pretty oblong and needs built back up. Probably because of the bale wagon and that 8550 square baler. Now I don't do much squares anymore, but the kubota is hooked to the processor for most of the winter. The drawbar is still nice an tight, but the processor has a pintle ring on it. I grind my teeth every time the slop hits from frozen cow shit. That is where I am running softer pins. I am not sure that is a good idea anymore. Not too worried about the processor pintle ring as it looks like a common bolt on ring, probably not, but still not a big deal to fix.
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