|
|
Post by Albertabuck on Sept 15, 2020 18:53:37 GMT -6
You know Ken, I guess I never looked at this from a lack of experienced operator or outright abuse view point...with that said I have over the years fixed a lot of burnt off battery cables, smoked starters, have even seen where the bakelite of the solenoid has been charred, but never once have seen contacts welded, which I will def agree can occur, but you are now in what I consider abuse and misuse territory.
|
|
|
|
Post by Albertabuck on Sept 15, 2020 18:57:59 GMT -6
There is no physical way that low voltage can cause a properly operating relay or starter soleniod to remain engaged or engage on its own, its mechanically impossible. That surprised me too Buck, I would never think it could stay engaged because of low batteries, but he said it can. Hey I'm not saying you're full of it, lol, like Ken said, he perhaps wasn't completely clear with his explanation or should have given more details. I always hate getting into these "long distance diagnostics" debates, yes there are always other small factors that can come into play that over the internet its impossible to know or see unless you were there. |
|
daryl672
Full Member
...
Posts: 114
Likes: 121
|
Post by daryl672 on Sept 15, 2020 19:24:36 GMT -6
That surprised me too Buck, I would never think it could stay engaged because of low batteries, but he said it can. Hey I'm not saying you're full of it, lol, like Ken said, he perhaps wasn't completely clear with his explanation or should have given more details. I always hate getting into these "long distance diagnostics" debates, yes there are always other small factors that can come into play that over the internet its impossible to know or see unless you were there. Yeah he might not of explained it all, but the thing I remember is when I told him how it wouldn't disengage, right away he told me my batteries were weak, didn't ask of they were, didn't list it with other things it might be, he just said that was the problem. So he must have seen that happen a few times. And sure enough when I got home and threw the battery charger on it showed them to be around that 30-35% mark. |
|
|
|
Post by kenmb on Sept 15, 2020 19:52:28 GMT -6
Lots of miscommunication this way, don't worry about it Daryl. I can be as precise as I can on something and the guy I am talking to hears something different - happens alot. The guy at the shop was clearly proven right so knew what he was saying. Just the interpretation gets muddled.
Yes, to what AB says it is kind of abuse. I am guilty because I did it myself. I don't think I have done it on a starter mounted solenoid but I have welded those Ford style and the 12/24v relay on the Kenworth I have welded. What happens is first those contacts get poor, then you get poor connection so lower voltage to starter through those contacts and now you are chasing around trying to find poor cable/battery connection, weak battery, whatever. And all the time trying the starter circuit and so the contacts are getting worse and hotter. And at some point they weld.
As the video says, they built the starter solenoid to avoid a known problem of weak battery welding the contacts. What I can see is the solenoid coil pulls the armature that moves the drive gear. This mechanism then pushes the plunger that bridges the contacts. If the contacts weld, you can release the key switch, which de-energizes the coil and that allows the starter gear drive spring to disengage the gear. The starter will still spin though because contacts are welded. But one less issue to deal with. Maybe I am misunderstanding it but that's my take on the video and problem/solution.
|
|
|
|
Post by northernfarmer on Sept 15, 2020 19:55:09 GMT -6
I've had that happen a couple of times over the years with a starter staying engaged electrically and while I can't 100% claim it was the starter solenoid welded/stuck, that was the most likely cause and have had that same comment from a starter rebuilder saying that low batteries can cause the contacts to weld due to not snapping in hard to make a good contact and the contacts start burning and then upon more use on now burnt rough contacts its having a harder time yet and possibly weld themselves together. In one case it was a cat truck engine and it wasn't as if the batteries were real bad as it cranked over fine but just so happened to take place in front of the shop and ran and got a wrench to undo the ground so there wasn't a melt down and then promptly replaced the whole starter with a reman unit and the batteries at the same time and no further problems and I had not changed out the smaller signal relay which I really should have now that I think about it. Another time it was an old ford gas grain truck and again it wasn't as if it was cranking over bad at all but let go of the key and could hear the starter still going and was out in the field and I couldn't get to any wrench in time and then tried by hand turning off a cable clamp with my hand and twisted off the battery post LOL. It fried the starter with so much cranking as it threw its solder and with the ford it had a remote solenoid and so replaced that and a reman starter and all was good again and in that case pretty sure the solenoid contacts stuck ... or something wasn't allowing the internals to move freely and causing the contacts to stay together.
I am guessing the versatile may have a second smaller relay and just to be on the safe side I would replace that along with getting the starter fixed or replaced with a decent reman unit, and change the batteries as I bet they sustained damage to be drawn down that drastically.
|
|
|
|
Post by Beerwiser on Sept 15, 2020 21:14:17 GMT -6
I have a theory on starters staying engaged with low batteries. I have this happen on my 986 with a new starter. Don't use the tractor much in winter so almost always needs a boost. Fresh battery in winter, no problem. I think what happens is the solenoid on the starter doesn't weld close, but rather the low torque of the starter keeps the bedix engaged to the flywheel and hence the contacts stay closed. It doesn't spin the engine fast enough or with enough torque to get that "gap" to release the bendix and points. I hope that makes sense.
|
|
powerwagon
New Member
Enter your message here...
Posts: 16
Likes: 1
|
Post by powerwagon on Sept 15, 2020 22:26:18 GMT -6
Thanks for all the responses guys. Went out today for a bit with charged up batteries went to go hookup the first one and it instantly sparked and engaged the starter again but not fully just grinding. Key off. Forgot my multimeter so I just pulled off the ford style solenoid and pulled the starter off again. Like Ken said I tested the small solenoid it’s open so should be good and it was new a couple years ago. When I checked the starter solenoid It makes continuity so must be welded together inside. I already took the solenoid off the first time I took the starter off and just tested it with a battery and it functioned properly pushing plunger in and out so I decided not to put the new solenoid I had bought but maybe that was a bad idea haha. Anyway I got the starter off and yes Daryl I’m taking it to Steve’s auto electric in pa get him to look it over I’ve brought him stuff before and agree he does good work. The starter got very hot my neighbour told me so it’s prob cooked. And once I can get it going I’ll check the alternator it’s prob done too. Thanks
|
|
|
|
Post by northernfarmer on Sept 15, 2020 22:53:53 GMT -6
I imagine you are correct that the solenoid is completing its circuit as designed, only in this case when no power is being applied to it now. But ironically I can see its possible that the welded together contacts inside could break free from the circular disc upon removal of the positive cable if that stud turns at all during that process.
|
|
daryl672
Full Member
...
Posts: 114
Likes: 121
|
Post by daryl672 on Sept 15, 2020 23:05:35 GMT -6
Thanks for all the responses guys. Went out today for a bit with charged up batteries went to go hookup the first one and it instantly sparked and engaged the starter again but not fully just grinding. Key off. Forgot my multimeter so I just pulled off the ford style solenoid and pulled the starter off again. Like Ken said I tested the small solenoid it’s open so should be good and it was new a couple years ago. When I checked the starter solenoid It makes continuity so must be welded together inside. I already took the solenoid off the first time I took the starter off and just tested it with a battery and it functioned properly pushing plunger in and out so I decided not to put the new solenoid I had bought but maybe that was a bad idea haha. Anyway I got the starter off and yes Daryl I’m taking it to Steve’s auto electric in pa get him to look it over I’ve brought him stuff before and agree he does good work. The starter got very hot my neighbour told me so it’s prob cooked. And once I can get it going I’ll check the alternator it’s prob done too. Thanks Should take your alternator off and run it in with the starter. He could tell you right there if its good or not, save you some time and maybe another trip |
|
|
|
Post by kenmb on Sept 16, 2020 8:06:51 GMT -6
Often it's not about precisely defining what happened, but just being in the right ball park so you change the right parts. For instance, the situation I am talking of may not actually be welded contacts but results are the same, the starter drive mechanism itself could be worn or sticky due to dirt so the spring does not kick out the gear. And if that spring doesn't move that armature to the resting position then those contacts will stay bridged. So it could be a mechanical issue with the same results. Doesn't really matter much I guess. Either welded contacts or a mechanical sticking can often be cured temporarily by a sharp whack with something, that's often all it takes. And then the starter disengages. So no surprise powerwagon tested the solenoid initially and all seemed well. You can't troubleshoot a problem that isn't there at the moment so you go looking elsewhere.
I wouldn't worry about that starting relay if it's only a few years old.
|
|
powerwagon
New Member
Enter your message here...
Posts: 16
Likes: 1
|
Post by powerwagon on Sept 17, 2020 22:02:36 GMT -6
Well thanks everyone again the tractors goin starter was shot. I took your advice Daryl and brought the alternator in too it tested good. Starter was cooked he said it looked like it got very hot shaft had a blue tinge. He figures my neighbour ran the tractor for awhile with the starter engaged not sure why it happened but it did. he said same thing low voltage can cause that? Anyway fired it up and my voltage gauge is only at 11 volts in cab. Alternator tested good though so I put my voltmeter on the alternator and it’s showimg 13.8. Is that charging enough or u need 14.4?
|
|
|
|
Post by Albertabuck on Sept 17, 2020 22:09:47 GMT -6
Sounds like you may have an issue with the charge relay in the dash. Let me check if I have a pic of the wiring for the Series II on my computer already, otherwise I will try to get one up on here for you. MT Dodge on the old forum had an issue with his and I know I had the manuals out for that, whether I took pics of the diagrams or not I can't remember. In the meantime watch out, that charge relay is connected to the secondary small terminal of that ford style relay...there just may be something else going on here and that might be what triggered your starter getting cooked.
|
|
powerwagon
New Member
Enter your message here...
Posts: 16
Likes: 1
|
Post by powerwagon on Sept 17, 2020 22:18:34 GMT -6
Ya I’d appreciate that albertabuck! But a buddy of mine I was talking to sent me a link to another forum agtalk talking about this and they said 13.8 is good I always thought charging was 14.4? Like I said though it tested 13.8 where the alternator hooks to the main power on the starter solenoid but the gauge inside says only 11. And I confirmed it manually with my voltmeter at the back of the guage and it’s 11 there. Not sure
|
|
powerwagon
New Member
Enter your message here...
Posts: 16
Likes: 1
|
Post by powerwagon on Sept 17, 2020 22:23:39 GMT -6
I’m not sure how to put pictures on here but I was wondering what the other solenoid was for under the dash? Sometimes it takes a few seconds for the radio and fan to kick in after it starts and I think that solenoid might run that stuff?
|
|
|
|
Post by Beerwiser on Sept 17, 2020 22:32:53 GMT -6
Powerwagon, if you go into the reply (not quick reply) you will see add attachment on the top right.
|
|
