powerwagon
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Post by powerwagon on Sept 14, 2020 23:14:55 GMT -6
My neighbour was running my 77 versatile 850 855 Cummins and it suddenly died on him. Said he could smell some wires burning or something hot and soon after it died and battery was completely dead. He tried boosting it and as soon as power was hooked the starter tried to engage but just kinda grinded with key off. I went out today pulled starter cleaned it up figured maybe starter solenoid, tested it with battery charger solenoid engages like it should but starter maybe a little slow could be dragging but still spun. Put back on with charged batteries back in and tried starting. First hit start button and it just clicked then the starter started grinding but not fully engaging. Shut key off and wouldn’t stop had to unhook battery cables to stop it. What’s going on short somewhere in the starter? He said when it first happened the starter was super hot.
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Post by meskie on Sept 14, 2020 23:26:39 GMT -6
Sounds like you have a big short somewhere. Could be in key switch circuit
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Post by Beerwiser on Sept 15, 2020 2:07:15 GMT -6
Isn't there 2 solenoids in that starter circuit. Thought there was one on the fire wall.
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Post by Oatking on Sept 15, 2020 6:25:53 GMT -6
What type of shape is the alternator. The location of the versatile alternator often get plugged with dirt and straw and often the diodes burn out or other parts in the alternator get hot and burn out. I actually keep a spare alternator in the shop for my 946. Poor alternator would cause poor power to starter.
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Post by cptusa on Sept 15, 2020 6:29:21 GMT -6
I agree on the big short somewhere. Starters on old tractors can do funny things once in awhile when they have voltage to low to fully power them applied and will continue to grind for a bit (an eternity sometimes) after power is no longer applied through the start circuit.
I'd look closely at the starting circuit and larger battery/power cables first, anywhere cables could rub some metal.
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Post by Albertabuck on Sept 15, 2020 8:47:10 GMT -6
That should be a Series II. First place I would go is check the wiring related to and starter relay itself, this as mentioned already is on the front of cab. Most likely the relay is stuck or it is getting powered by a shorted source, which would have to occur after the start switch in the dash. The two small terminals on the top of relay, one goes to the starter switch, the other to the charge relay in the dash. The problem is that relay is most likely remaining activated either because it has continuous power or the relay itself is NFG. That relay is what activates the solenoid on the starter.
Also just thought I would add this, once a Cummins with the electric shut off on a PT pump drops to about 7 volts it will shut off the fuel simply due to low voltage. On another note, if ever needed, there is a screw you can turn in manually to override the electric shut off in emergencies to start or keep the engine running.
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powerwagon
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Post by powerwagon on Sept 15, 2020 10:36:37 GMT -6
Yes Alberta If need be dad said we could screw that screw in and pull start it to get it to the yard haven’t got out there today. I’ve replace both solenoids not many years ago the one by the cab it’s like a old ford type solenoid is that what u mean is a relay Albertabuck? Looked under the dash haven’t found any burnt or melted wires but will continue to look. I am wondering about the alternator it’s old and quite possibly it quit and ran down until it shut off the injection pump. I’m charging batteries now gonna give it another shot with full batteries. Yesterday when I hooked up one good battery it sparked when I hooked the cables up. So could be a short
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powerwagon
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Post by powerwagon on Sept 15, 2020 10:37:20 GMT -6
Yes it’s a series 11
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Post by kenmb on Sept 15, 2020 10:53:34 GMT -6
Is that 12v or 24v starter system?
There often is another relay to switch power to the starter solenoid because that solenoid can be in the 15 to 30 amp range so too much for just a key switch. So key switch feeds the relay the guys are mentioning. Then that relay energizes the starter solenoid.
I would put an ohmeter across the main terminals of that Ford style relay and also from the main post on the starter solenoid to the starter hot terminal and look for continuity. Should see an open when things are powered down. Continuity means welded contacts. If you prove contacts are open, then hook up battery's, and starter tries to engage instantly then I would be thinking a short somewhere that is energizing the start circuit.
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daryl672
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Post by daryl672 on Sept 15, 2020 15:01:56 GMT -6
My neighbour was running my 77 versatile 850 855 Cummins and it suddenly died on him. Said he could smell some wires burning or something hot and soon after it died and battery was completely dead. He tried boosting it and as soon as power was hooked the starter tried to engage but just kinda grinded with key off. I went out today pulled starter cleaned it up figured maybe starter solenoid, tested it with battery charger solenoid engages like it should but starter maybe a little slow could be dragging but still spun. Put back on with charged batteries back in and tried starting. First hit start button and it just clicked then the starter started grinding but not fully engaging. Shut key off and wouldn’t stop had to unhook battery cables to stop it. What’s going on short somewhere in the starter? He said when it first happened the starter was super hot. Had a similar problem this spring on my 4010. Started the tractor up to run a swing away auger and a while later I walked by the tractor and smelled burning wires. shut the tractor off but the starter was still engaged. had to run get a 1/2 inch wrench to disconnect the battery to stop it. tried reconnecting the battery cable and it wanted to stay engaged even with the key off so I had to leave it off. Brought the starter in thinking I needed a solenoid and get him to check the starter over but the starter was toast already, needed a rebuilt. I explained what happened at the shop and he said low batteries was the problem, the starter won't disengage if they are too low, they have enough juice to start it, but not to kick out. Sure enough after I put the new starter on and charged up the batteries I checked and the alternator was shot, not charging. If I were to guess I would say that when your neighbor started up the tractor the starter never did disengage while he was working, thus the super hot starter and burning wire smell. And unfortunately your starter might be toast too if it won't work with charged batteries. I would go get it checked out, and your alternator too, that is probably what caused the starter problems. good luck
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daryl672
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Post by daryl672 on Sept 15, 2020 15:58:01 GMT -6
Hey I just realized who you were and where you are from Powerwagon. FYI I brought my starter into Steve's Auto Electric in PA. He's really good and will know what your problem is. Reasonably priced too, I'd go see him if I were you
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Post by Albertabuck on Sept 15, 2020 18:01:11 GMT -6
.... I explained what happened at the shop and he said low batteries was the problem, the starter won't disengage if they are too low, they have enough juice to start it, but not to kick out. ..... There is something inherently wrong with this...for example on your 4010 same as with this Versatile, all the relays and solenoids involved utilize electromagnetic force to over come mechanical spring force...if you try to operating them with low voltage, the relay or soleniod will not hold a closed position or will not close the contacts because the low voltage to the electromagnet is not strong enough to over come the spring pressure. There is no physical way that low voltage can cause a properly operating relay or starter soleniod to remain engaged or engage on its own, its mechanically impossible. This is why like on an older Ford, when you have a low battery, you get that chattering from the starter relay/soleniod. Thats because momentarly there is enough voltage to engage the magnet inside the relay, but once the contacts close, the starter now draws which reduces the voltage causing the relay to open...this repeats rapidly under the right conditions, thus the chattering those old Fords were known for. The only way a starter can engage while running or remain engaged, is if some other factors are at play as in faulty components ect. After the power is removed from the soleniod, the spring forces the contacts open and pulls the bendix from the flywheel, or depending on design of the bendix, the bendix is automatically thrown out of engagement of the flywheel when the flywheel begins to spin at a greater speed than the starter thru the function of an overrunning arrangment. The bendix is the gear drive assembly on the end of the starter that engages into the flywheel teeth. There had to be something else at play in your situation with your 4010 or the guy telling you this didn't know what he was talking about or you got something crossed up. Now getting into computer controled crap, stupid things can start happening with low voltage absolutely, but not with a mechanical system like was in play here in both cases. Also Versatile is all straight 12 volt other than perhaps the 1150 with the KTA, but to my knowledge it is only 12 as well.
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Post by kenmb on Sept 15, 2020 18:28:07 GMT -6
Yes, the guy at the shop didn't explain it very well. As AB says, the spring kicks it out. Unless the contacts are welded. Not 100% applicable to the discussion but this helps a bit.
The video doesn't say how they separate the shaft but it looks like the shaft that bridges the contacts can move independently (to an extent) of the shaft that moves the drive gear mechanism. When it is one solid shaft, and the contacts weld, then you have a condition of an energized starter and a starter drive that won't disengage because the welded contacts hold the shaft in the "starter drive engaged" position.
That's why I was saying to check continuity.
And yes, symptom #1 is alternator quits. Or bad battery. Then the engine cranking has reduced voltage and the contacts chatter as AB mentions. That chatter causes arcing across the contacts and that molten metal eventually can form a weld. And there you are. So check for continuity.
I assume it is 12v starter, but as soon as I do that and it's not, then I waste a bunch of typing.
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daryl672
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Post by daryl672 on Sept 15, 2020 18:48:33 GMT -6
Guys I personally have no idea how it works, honestly I am not good at all with electrical, I am just trying to tell you about my experience. All I know is the starter would not disengage. I took it off, brought it in, was told it was toast, took the rebuilt home (with a new solenoid on it), put it on, recharged the batteries and fired it up and it worked good. Checked the alternator and it wasn't working so replaced that too, haven't had a problem since. Maybe it was the solenoid on the starter that the low batteries damaged? I don't know. The biggest thing he stressed to me is keep my batteries charged good because low batteries reek havoc on starting systems.
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daryl672
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Post by daryl672 on Sept 15, 2020 18:51:08 GMT -6
.... I explained what happened at the shop and he said low batteries was the problem, the starter won't disengage if they are too low, they have enough juice to start it, but not to kick out. ..... There is no physical way that low voltage can cause a properly operating relay or starter soleniod to remain engaged or engage on its own, its mechanically impossible. That surprised me too Buck, I would never think it could stay engaged with low batteries, but he said it can.
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