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Post by OptimallyDismal on Jan 9, 2022 21:25:05 GMT -6
I am considering off grid solar systems, I want a system that is separate from the regular Hydro, so I don't have to deal with them and I am not looking to go on any of their programs either. I am thinking a 20KW system to start. I also want a system that has batteries so that it would be an alternate power source when the Hydro goes off. I think that using it as a stand alone system it can still pay for itself by providing the power in place of what I would be paying Hydro for. It may not have as short of a payback as if I tie it into the system and get into a program (not sure if they even do that anyway still). I am curious what others experiences with solar systems are and the good bad and ugly of setting up a system. Pricing is all over the place, but it would appear that the equipment is getting more affordable and maybe better quality? Although I am aware there is some extreme junk out there as well.
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Post by Beerwiser on Jan 10, 2022 11:57:15 GMT -6
Good you brought this up, I was wondering the same thing. I had a power outage on Christmas day right at supper time and of course I was not home to start a generator. Two hours without power in that cold gave me a ton of grief when I got home. Is there a way to have an automatic whole yard transfer switch that can be tied into the transformer pole? All I have seen are individual auto transfer breakers. That is pretty useless as I have 3 breaker boxes in 3 separate buildings I need to power. I was thinking of grid tied with battery and generator backup as I do like the idea of getting paid in summer.
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Post by hardrockacres on Jan 10, 2022 12:11:20 GMT -6
I have 1 main auto transfer switch at my pole for my generator that runs the whole yard, (house, shop, barn, etc.) it even sends power to my power boards for my aeration fans...lol like i need to run them when the power is out. It came with the generator.
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Post by OptimallyDismal on Jan 10, 2022 12:31:40 GMT -6
Not sure how things work in Alberta, but I think the regulations will be formidable. In Manitoba they want the solar systems removed from the system in a power failure to prevent back energizing the lines, so they shut off if grid power fails, and those systems don't have batteries either. I have heard that Saskatchewan Power will install a transfer switch for a generator, (can anyone confirm this?) this means that it is done to their standards and I understand there is no fee so people are more likely to have it done instead of just switching off the yard pole breaker and firing up the generator. In Manitoba it is very expensive and requires a contractor or a whole lot of permits and hassle to do it yourself (actually doubt you can do it yourself legally). I would think your system should work with an auto transfer, same as with an auto start generator system would with your generator as a secondary backup? This is why I would like to run it separately and power a separate heat or A/C and maybe freezer/fridge lighting etc, from a critical load panel like they put in for a back up generator panel. I do realize this also means wiring between buildings as well, but if the runs are short it may not be a big deal. I figure if you are going to spend all this money on a system you really should have an alternate supply for grid failure situations.
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Post by meskie on Jan 10, 2022 12:48:23 GMT -6
I was told that sask power will install a transfer switch for $700. There was lots of interest in it when the power was out in our area for 28 hours in November. Couple guys have solar panels near me and they were running generators cause there isn’t much power being generated that time year. I’m not sure how there’s is hooked up as they got in on the net metering program the sask government had a couple years ago.
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Post by OptimallyDismal on Jan 10, 2022 14:10:22 GMT -6
Manitoba Hydro had several versions of the solar program, the best was: you get what you put into the grid for power taken off your bill for the year with the possibility of zeroing out your bill, they had restrictions on the size of your installation, and you could never make a profit. Another was you got 7.5 cents/KWH for what you put in, for 3 years, they got worse as time went on. They also changed it so you had a minimum bill as well. Depending on the type and size of service in Manitoba I doubt you can get a switch put in for less than $10,000. (it was $7500 minimum 7 years ago, and I don't think it will be any less now).
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Post by Beerwiser on Jan 10, 2022 19:41:57 GMT -6
Ok, good to know that you can get a transfer switch for the whole yard. I am assuming the power company would be fine with that as it would prevent the solar or gen setup from powering their lines. They frown upon double male extension cords... I will have to look into if I can even hook into the grid with the REA and if it is anything like Manitoba hydro is it may end up being a stand alone system too. That is a bunch of bullshit that you can not make money with them, may be worthwhile hitting up greenpeace and the other lunatics to get them on your side lol.
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Post by Oatking on Jan 11, 2022 19:49:29 GMT -6
What is the estimated payback period for a solar panel system for a farm yard? I do see more farms in my area hooking up to them!
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Post by OptimallyDismal on Jan 11, 2022 22:20:42 GMT -6
Mb Hydro's website says they charge $.08983/KWH and they pay $.02403/KWH for excess generation and it is $2000 - $4000/KW to install a solar system. This is a long payback plan. If you have a 25 year warranty it won't be enough at those rates. The bottom line is they really don't want you to do it. The first plan was the best where you got whatever you put into the system taken off your usage bill, that plan didn't last long, but I wonder if they are still completing the ones that signed up for it, they were way behind. Looks like they got a lot worse plans now. Here is the link for Mb Hydro solar: www.hydro.mb.ca/your_home/grid_connected_solar_pv_systems/
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Post by torriem on Jan 11, 2022 23:47:16 GMT -6
There's a big difference between going off grid (as the OptimallyDismal talked about), and doing solar micro-generation. When you're off grid, you have the advantage of no transmission costs and regulations are more relaxed. But the downside is you have to manage a lot of things yourself like balancing your load with the solar cells, etc. As for solar micro-generation, I think it's really interesting and I'd love to do it. But currently I see it as a bit of scam. All the numbers I've seen assume you can always sell your power at retail rates which, if you think about it, is absurd. Why should a power company be required to buy your surplus power at retail rates when they can buy it from the generators at wholesale rates? Plus there's still the issue of paying for the infrastructure upkeep (transmission lines, substations). In some jurisdictions, power companies are levying a charge on solar generation for this very reason. Obviously home owners get upset about this as their goal is essentially free electricity. They don't think about their continued reliance on the rest of the grid. Plus solar tends to have a glut of power during a time of day when power consumption is actually at its lowest. And it's not like the grid can just absorb extra power. It has to go somewhere. Balancing a grid with lots of micro solar generating is a real nightmare. EDIT: I just read OptimallyDismal's last post about Manitoba hydro buying back power at half the retail rate which is more reasonable. But with those numbers, how long does it take to pay for itself. I'm not sure our current prices right now, but we've been on a multi-year contract with Enmax for something like under 6 cents a kilowatt hour. Fixed charges are more than double that. Now my neighbors have bought into solar generation quite a bit, and they are all signing contracts to buy at 20 cents a kilowatt hour because then they can sell their power at that same rate (again, that's something that will have to change in the future). With those kind of rates they are getting close to net zero on their power usage, which is actually all they can do under the regulations they are operating, but they still have to pay transmission regardless of which way the current is flowing. I remain on the fence, despite several 160 acre installations in my area by some farmers.
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Post by OptimallyDismal on Jan 12, 2022 9:18:02 GMT -6
Good points Torriem, I was wondering about the other provinces handling of micro generation, Manitoba figures there is lots of cheap hydro power so they really aren't interested in sharing the profits with anyone else, as they are a monopoly. They weren't interested in wind power either until the government decided that it was a great idea, then suddenly it was a great idea and they agreed to buy all the power from the St Leon wind farm at full retail after they threatened to sell to the states. I think wind power is a scam of its own.(they won't produce enough power to pay for themselves, let alone make a profit) The low rates in Manitoba do make it a very difficult proposition to justify as well as their low rates of return at less than 1/3 retail. The deregulation of power generation and transmission have forced them to open the door to alternative generation, as well as the privatization of parts of the system, as when a utility sells off their generation or transmission sector. Just from the technical aspect I am interested in a system of my own, I do like the test and tweaking aspect and if I can get a useable system out of it that is a great thing. But I do want a stand alone off grid type system that I have autonomy with. Are there any good deals in Canada for systems? I want to buy the stuff and set it up myself, I see lots in the USA but not so much here?
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Post by kenmb on Jan 12, 2022 12:37:57 GMT -6
I am into about year 5 with 20kw solar system here in Sask. I estimated about 9 year payback and on track for that. It is grid tied. House uses electric boiler so that is why I am at 20kw. I cover about 70% of my bill and this feeds my shop and two bin fans off this service.
I did fixed mount panels and in hindsight should have done a manual tilt design so could tip them up in winter months. There is a local guy who talked with me a few times before finally doing it and ran into him again this summer and he got some smoking deals on a system he finally put up that would get him about 6 year payback. I built wood structure for panels but he found some metal structures sourced in Alberta that were dirt cheap compared to my do it yourself wood and they have manual tilt. He also found some low priced panels. I consider him a straight shooter so do beleive deals are out there.
Going off grid with batteries is going to get expensive. A standby generator is a better option but if you want to get rid of the $35/month charge to eliminate your service then it will cost.
Auto transfer switch at your meter point is easiest. It uncouples from utility before coupling to generator so no issue with backfeed. I do things manually here. $700 Canadian Tire generator into my house panel and switch breakers by hand. No peace of mind if power goes out while away. I need a 25kw generator with transfer switch to give me that comfort level to keep electric boiler on in house.
At the very least everyone should have a cheap generator and know how to stab it into a panel. I just have a breaker in my panel that stays off all the time and is permanently connected to my generator. If I get my generator started I can be on generator power in 60 seconds by turning off my main and turn on the Gen breaker of my panel. Going full auto is a far bigger undertaking. I have considered it a couple times but right now I am covered for all things for about $800 under the caveat I am home when power goes out. While the wife or kids can do the switching themselves and I printed instructions and showed them the process, the reality is I doubt they will.
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Post by torriem on Jan 12, 2022 14:04:00 GMT -6
Another option for off-grid generation is a natural gas combined heat and power unit. They are not cheap, but with transmission rates (here in alberta anyway) rising fast, might pay for itself at some point. They are apparently incredibly reliable with just a bit of maintenance like oil changes.
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Post by OptimallyDismal on Jan 13, 2022 9:29:31 GMT -6
I am into about year 5 with 20kw solar system here in Sask. I estimated about 9 year payback and on track for that. It is grid tied. House uses electric boiler so that is why I am at 20kw. I cover about 70% of my bill and this feeds my shop and two bin fans off this service. I did fixed mount panels and in hindsight should have done a manual tilt design so could tip them up in winter months. There is a local guy who talked with me a few times before finally doing it and ran into him again this summer and he got some smoking deals on a system he finally put up that would get him about 6 year payback. I built wood structure for panels but he found some metal structures sourced in Alberta that were dirt cheap compared to my do it yourself wood and they have manual tilt. He also found some low priced panels. I consider him a straight shooter so do beleive deals are out there. Going off grid with batteries is going to get expensive. A standby generator is a better option but if you want to get rid of the $35/month charge to eliminate your service then it will cost. Auto transfer switch at your meter point is easiest. It uncouples from utility before coupling to generator so no issue with backfeed. I do things manually here. $700 Canadian Tire generator into my house panel and switch breakers by hand. No peace of mind if power goes out while away. I need a 25kw generator with transfer switch to give me that comfort level to keep electric boiler on in house. At the very least everyone should have a cheap generator and know how to stab it into a panel. I just have a breaker in my panel that stays off all the time and is permanently connected to my generator. If I get my generator started I can be on generator power in 60 seconds by turning off my main and turn on the Gen breaker of my panel. Going full auto is a far bigger undertaking. I have considered it a couple times but right now I am covered for all things for about $800 under the caveat I am home when power goes out. While the wife or kids can do the switching themselves and I printed instructions and showed them the process, the reality is I doubt they will. Is your system with individual inverters or optimizers or a main inverter? What is the $35 month charge for? Is your deal a fixed rate or subtract your production from your bill?
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Post by kenmb on Jan 13, 2022 10:02:15 GMT -6
One thing to mention, Meskie mentioned a transfer switch available from SaskPower for $700. I got that on my new pad mount transformer. Nothing fancy, just a two position manual switch. One position and it connects SaskPower to your main breaker and throw it in the other position and you can have a generator connected to your main breaker. I have not used it, figured if I ever bought a PTO generator then that is how I would connect it to power my whole system.
OD, I have two 10kw inverters, that is about as big as they go. Those multiple micro inverters sound interesting also. I bought my system from a guy I worked with occasionally so it was a package deal.
The $35/mo (or there abouts) is what SaskPower charges to have power available to your yard whether you use it or not. If you don't pay that then they come take the meter. No meter and therefore no power to your breaker.
Being an older contract arrangement, SaskPower basically deducts the kWh I produce from the kWh I consume. When I run out of stored credits in around February then I pay the going rate for kWh. Back then, if I over generated through the year then if I had credits at the start of the new billing year SaskPower reset the credits to zero. So there was no advantage to over sizing. Now I believe you can store credits up to 3 years.
If I was to do it again I would do something with tilting. I would also really consider a tracking arrangement. You can increase power output by about 40% with tracking. Now, if you pay for a tracker system then you eat up those advantages by paying someone to build it all. But looking online I see the module is like $500, a couple electric actuators for a few hundred bucks and you got the electrics done. Next thing is building the mount. I suspect that is where a lot of the cost for a prebuilt system comes from. However, being a farmer with old crap laying around like rod weeder frames and such, pipe, grease, drive axle hubs, whatever, and hire screw pile contractor and I suspect a guy could build a solar tracker frame work that makes it possible.
So for me, I kick around the idea of another 5kw. And so a 3kw solar tracker (gets me equivalent to 5kw fixed) is not too massive of a structure. Also gives me a little more power earlier in the morning and later in the day. The sun doesn't always shine at 10am or till 4pm. A solar tracker can capture a sunny morning before it clouds up in the afternoon for example.
If I add more solar I expect it will be a solar tracker. More of a project to play with. Just haven't got that bored yet to pursue it.
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