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Post by northernfarmer on Jan 13, 2021 11:48:54 GMT -6
I didn't realize that my John Deere Starfire 3000 receivers required updating as I had a call from the JD dealer giving me a heads up that I have to either bring the units in or get the software on a memory stick and do it myself since my monitors are older they won't update on their own like the new systems will. Of course my older ITC is now officially a paper weight other then if one was to try and use it to steer from which isn't why I have autotrac in the first place so it will sit on the shelf collecting dust.
How this change affects other brands of GPS I don't know since I only own the JD system but this is a reminder to anyone with a system to see what if anything is required before spring comes.
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Post by torriem on Jan 13, 2021 14:03:25 GMT -6
I just finished the update to my 3000 receivers. It was pretty painless using a USB stick and their GS Live Update software. One receiver had old firmware, though, which required updating to 1.30D before I could go to the latest version. For information see talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=972261If you're handy with microcontrollers, it's a matter of tweaking just two bytes of one message on the CAN bus to make autotrac work with WAAS and the itc. PM if if you're interested. And no, other brands do not require updates. I'm not sure what all is included in this update, but one thing it does change is the SF1 frequency. It may also program the GPS radios to listen on the new GPS frequencies also. Note that it's going to take nearly four or five more years for GPS to migrate to the new frequencies as new satellites are launched. At that point when they finally turn off the old frequencies most old GPS receivers may cease to function. Like my 25 year old handheld garmin unit (remember those?). ITC will loose its ability to do WAAS at that time also. Most Ag receivers from the last 10 or 15 years should be okay I think. Despite what John Deere says, this Feb 1,2021 deadline for SF1 is on John Deere's end, not GPS. A few years ago, GPS had a similar deadline, but that slipped a long time ago. |
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Post by northernfarmer on Jan 13, 2021 15:50:20 GMT -6
I guess I am not so surprised I am late to the game as in updating or realizing I even had to update the units software for this year. I am way behind when it comes to technology and way further behind when it comes to knowing how to use it or certainly fix it if there are any software glitches, the 90+ year old in a nursing home had me beat when it comes to technology !.
I wouldn't be surprised if JD didn't include something their program to put a kink into toying with the ITC to get it to work and also play nice with whatever pixie dust they cause the display to set to or am guessing if once connected to a reprogrammed 3000 ?. I certainly won't throw my ITC away just in case it can serve a purpose once the dust settles on the new updates.
Curious what Garmin model your hand held GPS is, I was given one as a gift long ago and rarely used it although I still have it and have used it to check altitudes or speedometer error. It was so very limited in what it could do as it only is able to set waypoints and then the bread crumb track which is so small in resolution you would have to be way off track before it would show you were and getting a proper signal in the mountains seemed to be an issue. It also takes such a long time to find/track the satellites when started up, maybe that is due to its old technology vs the satellites these days. I've forgotten how to even use half of what little it has on it now, certainly no maps on a unit like this as those types of things came out mainstream after this unit was on the market. Mine is a Garmin Etrex Summit. One of my nephews has a new type of handheld GPS which I forget the name of but its able to communicate with the satellites to send text out to someone if there is no cell service although its not got a decent keypad system so he has to blue tooth link his cell phone to the GPS which is possible to send the text from one hand into the other basically and then off to the satellite. Its not a cheap unit and there is a monthly or yearly fee that is quite high to make use of such features but his work pays for the unit and everything else so he can make use of it when he goes off sledding in the mountains as well.
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Post by torriem on Jan 13, 2021 19:24:01 GMT -6
Well the firmware update only applies to the 3000 and 6000 receivers. If a guy is still running ITC, he probably also has the older brown box monitor which hasn't received any updates in years. Also the updated 3000 receiver works fine with the brown box monitor, and I've heard the 6000 still works with it too. Personally I don't love the 2630 that I have on one tractor. I've not used the new series of monitors but I'm sure they are improved. Anyway just to reiterate for any other readers, if you use any John Deere GPS equipment (3000 or newer), and you use SF1, be sure to update your receiver firmware or SF1 will stop working. I do not believe the SF2 or SF3 signals are affected. And of course RTK isn't affected either by these changes. Just SF1. Not sure what model of handheld unit I have. In fact I'm not even sure where it is anymore. Last time I used it was in 2007. I'm pretty sure my unit was made long before bluetooth was a thing. I suspect your handheld unit will continue running just fine past 2024 until at least 2027[1]. Sounds like it is a lot newer than mine! [1] www.gps.gov/technical/codeless/ |
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Post by torriem on Jan 13, 2021 19:38:11 GMT -6
Just read on newagtalk that the FCC announced that the current "old" signals from GPS will continue until nearly 2029. Once 24 satellites are broadcasting on the new bands, they'll start phasing out the old ones.
It's kind of a neat time in terms of position systems. We know have pieces of five different constellations operating. That means quicker fixes to higher accuracy, and more tolerance for potential satellite failures and signal jamming. My cell phone typically sees about 25 satellites from GPS, Glonass, Galileo, and Beidou. Very cool. There is work being done to get near RTK accuracy without a nearby base station. Exciting stuff. Especially when combined with DIY auto steering like AgOpenGPS!
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Post by northernfarmer on Jan 15, 2021 16:47:19 GMT -6
I took my receivers into the dealer rather then screw up something by trying to download and do it myself, and if they screwed it up they can fix it !. So according to them they say that all JD receivers will require updating no matter if its running SF1, SF2, SF3 or RTK so it seems its affecting their whole line of offerings. In saying that he said with newer units and if one is connected up with JD link, it will download it over the air but have to do that properly and not go and start a unit and then get pissed off and turn off the key part way through the update process because its taking way too long ( which I am assuming takes longer then using a program on a stick ) as that he claims will mess up the system and would need to be brought in to do a forced load. I fully expect there to be some scrambling this spring with units that didn't get updated properly.
Torriem, I made the comment to him that I heard "someone" talk about it being possible in theory to manipulate the ITC unit into being able to run auto steer on WASS and he said that would be impressive because I don't think the guys at JD who design the software would know how ( or something to that effect he stated ) so I think that's a challenge right there to out do the techno nerds ! He himself has been an IT tech for years with office computer systems and working with the GPS system and playing with drones in the last couple of years doing field crop visual mapping. Then again he may have to state that to follow through on the JD claim that the ITC won't work.
Mind you if the WASS signal is not corrected in any way which may be the case with the ITC since I assume it would no longer get the corrections from SF1, it would be quite a weaving experience and not practical nor friendly to the unit being steered by fighting a very inaccurate signal.
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Post by torriem on Jan 15, 2021 17:08:59 GMT -6
Hmm yeah it's a convoluted story out of Deere. I guess SF1 and SF2 really are on the same satellite and frequency. Probably SF3 also. RTK doesn't depend on any of this, except that Deere in their wisdom (and to provide fallback when the tower fails), requires SF2 or SF3 before RTK will acquire.
WAAS has nothing to do with John Deere. It's a correction signal similar to how RTK works, but it's broadcast from the the US gov't through some geosynchronous satellites using the same frequencies as GPS uses (the old and new frequencies). It's based on observations at several places in the United States. So the farther north you are in Canada, the less accurate WAAS is. ITC will work with WAAS until 2027 or so, until GPS switches the civilian signals to L5. At one time I think there was a WAAS reference station in Canada. Not sure about that.
As for what's possible, it's not only possible, I have done it as a proof of concept. Works fine. Steers pretty well with WAAS, actually. Pass to pass accuracy isn't the greatest, though. For cultivation or small farmers it could be fine. Every other brand specifically allows steering with WAAS.
We need at least SF1, though, so I've got some 3000 receivers to install. Long term the goal is to move to AgOpenGPS and use my own RTK system (already have a base station set up).
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Post by northernfarmer on Jan 15, 2021 22:36:56 GMT -6
The way he worded it with WAAS was that its "raw data" coming down to the receiver and various companies using that signal will have corrections calculated. I don't know what if anything a tricked ITC does with that signal or if it does nothing more then use it. His comment was that WAAS accuracy is three feet or so, now if that is the case in actual use that would be an issue for accuracy for sure. How it seems in southern Alberta may be a certain amount different then it does this far north and certainly up in the Fort Vermilion area.
I would say that the 3000 is working better over all then the ITC was, had a fair bit of problems at times dropping signal later in the fall with the ITC some falls and am guessing it was partly due to less satellites that it follows and again due to the latitude along with that.
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Post by torriem on Jan 16, 2021 9:10:57 GMT -6
Yes that's the way all GPS correction systems work, including SF1, SF2, Centerpoint RTX, etc. The "correction" signals are actually just a series of ground-based observations to help your receiver (the 3000 in this case) correct for distortions of the GPS signals by the atmosphere. Whether it's WAAS, SF1 or RTK it's all just raw observation data. Your receiver does the heavy lifting and a lot of math to figure out how to correct the signals it is seeing.
He's correct about accuracy. WAAS is accurate to about 3 feet (one meter), or more depending on where you are located. But pass to pass precision is about a foot typically, sometimes less but sometimes more (not so great). Maybe this is mansplaning, but I find it interesting so forgive me:
The accuracy is an indication of whether you can find the exact same spot again later. SF1 in my experience has an accuracy of a couple of feet. If I make a mark and come back to it a few days later, the best it can do is get me within a couple of feet of where I was when I marked it. RTK, on the other hand, is accurate to within 2 cm. In other words, time and time again with RTK I can get back to within 2 cm of where I first made the mark. Think of accuracy as repeatability. SF3 would be repeatable to within about 6 inches, probably good enough for anyone except for row croppers. Centerpoint RTX is about the same on Trimble. In fact there's not a great reason to buy into RTK with Trimble, since RTX gets you nearly RTK for not much money.
Precision, on the other hand, is how accurate are the relative measurements. If I'm driving my A+ line, and I move over one pass, how close am I to the original pass? Obviously there's a mechanical component to this. But with WAAS, that's about one foot usually, but can be more. SF1 is about 6 inches. SF3 would be a inch probably. RTK is close to zero. Centerpoint RTX from timble is maybe 1 inch in this regard.
I think you are correct that the farther north you are, the worse WAAS works, since all the reference stations are down south.
I have no doubt the Starfire 3000 is probably a more sensitive receiver and can deal with a lower signal to noise ratio. Many others have reported it works better for them than the ITC did, especially around trees (not a problem on this farm--haha).
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Post by Albertabuck on Jan 16, 2021 10:10:08 GMT -6
The Outback S3 I use for simple guidance/mapping seems to be consistent within two feet easily running on WAAS. Set it up with a 2 foot overlap and anytime I have ever checked it at various widths, have never been much variance. I seem to remember reading somewhere that with WAAS the more satellites you are getting signal from increases accuracy, I never seem to be below 5 and often it shows 7. Not sure if that changes depending on where you are located.
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Post by Oatking on Jan 16, 2021 11:43:17 GMT -6
Torriem , can the old ITC deere units be retrofitted so they will work with the agopengps.? For fall harrowing or tillage was wondering if waas signal would still work on the itc sf1 units. Think i asked the question before but was not sure on how waas worked.
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Post by torriem on Jan 16, 2021 13:57:03 GMT -6
All Deere receivers can be configured to output industry-standard NMEA sentences that AgOpenGPS can use. There's a cable John Deere sells to bring RS232 from the receiver into the cab or you can make it yourself. I think more recent greenstar-ready tractors may have RS232 wires in the post plug. There is at least one farmer using some kind of starfire receiver with AgOpenGPS. One nice thing about starfire receivers is they have integrated terrain compensation which, in my experience is really good. With AOG Brian Tee has only recently got terrain compensation working well with the low-cost solutions.
As far as the ITC goes, yes it could be used with AgOpenGPS if you were okay with WAAS accuracy now that SF1 will soon be not working on it. And yes, WAAS will continue functioning on ITC receivers until some time after 2027. Just need to use a John Deere monitor of some kind to initially turn on NMEA and set the baud rate, and then it would work with just power and an RS232 adapter cable plugged into the deutsch plug.
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Post by northernfarmer on Jan 16, 2021 19:15:51 GMT -6
I forgive you for mansplaining  , that was just too funny as I am guessing there are no women on this forum as of yet.
I have not heard the name Brian Tee in a while as I assume he is not on here ?, he was on the other site until there was some thing going on that caused him to part ways.
Speaking of accuracy I need as good as SF1 can give me to not over or underlap with seeding, doing NH3, and for that matter not weaving around with the swather and spraying etc. Otherwise though if WAAS could keep within a foot pass to pass that would be reasonable for normal tillage with wider equipment, harrowing and so on. Basically getting as good as I can without getting into expensive yearly subscriptions and yes the JD tech made a comment on how much less expensive the Trimble receiver is but that to get an SF1 or better signal its subscriptions but I have no idea what those cost. For sure and he admitted that the JD unit is expensive because its including a life time subscription for SF1 .
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Post by torriem on Jan 16, 2021 21:46:54 GMT -6
Brian was off line for a long time due to a long harvest. He has recently picked up work on AgOpenGPS and is working hard at it, posting youtube videos to explain the logic and problem solving he's using. He's been quite active on the AgOpenGPS forum the last couple of months. He's not been active on the original combine forum in a while and I don't think he's got time to drop in here either. I envy his ability to focus on AOG for so long. I'm not good at that sort of thing. I might be a bit ADD. Yes John Deere's one-time SF1 activation hits a sweet spot for many people including me. Everything with Trimble is a subscription beyond WAAS. However, their highest accuracy subscription satellite signal is Centerpoint RTX, which is only $1000 a year with no unlock needed, and is nearly RTK accuracy. Since most dealerships charge more than that for their RTK towers, it's actually a pretty good deal. Here I'm using my own RTK base station that I built myself to get RTK with Trimble on my sprayer (it was already unlocked for RTK). Sadly John Deere uses proprietary protocols for RTK, so if I were to do RTK with Starfire I'd have to pay for an expensive unlock, plus a yearly SF2 fee, plus the dealer's RTK fees (or my neighbor's fees for his tower). |
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ltk
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Post by ltk on Jan 17, 2021 11:45:13 GMT -6
I took my receivers into the dealer rather then screw up something by trying to download and do it myself, and if they screwed it up they can fix it !. So according to them they say that all JD receivers will require updating no matter if its running SF1, SF2, SF3 or RTK so it seems its affecting their whole line of offerings. In saying that he said with newer units and if one is connected up with JD link, it will download it over the air but have to do that properly and not go and start a unit and then get pissed off and turn off the key part way through the update process because its taking way too long ( which I am assuming takes longer then using a program on a stick ) as that he claims will mess up the system and would need to be brought in to do a forced load. I fully expect there to be some scrambling this spring with units that didn't get updated properly.
Torriem, I made the comment to him that I heard "someone" talk about it being possible in theory to manipulate the ITC unit into being able to run auto steer on WASS and he said that would be impressive because I don't think the guys at JD who design the software would know how ( or something to that effect he stated ) so I think that's a challenge right there to out do the techno nerds ! He himself has been an IT tech for years with office computer systems and working with the GPS system and playing with drones in the last couple of years doing field crop visual mapping. Then again he may have to state that to follow through on the JD claim that the ITC won't work.
Mind you if the WASS signal is not corrected in any way which may be the case with the ITC since I assume it would no longer get the corrections from SF1, it would be quite a weaving experience and not practical nor friendly to the unit being steered by fighting a very inaccurate signal.
Is that Jason you were talking to?. |
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, that was just too funny as I am guessing there are no women on this forum as of yet. 