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Post by OptimallyDismal on Mar 15, 2022 8:14:22 GMT -6
In Manitoba the only place you can connect the ground and neutral is in the panel.
Service entrances do not require grounding, that is the meter socket on your house, the meter box on your yard pole, your CSTE for a greater than 200A service.
The 200A yard pole breaker does not require a ground as they are a current driven device with no ground reference.
Kenmb, it sounds like you and I had similar jobs, yes the code book is like reading a legal document, PITA.
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Post by northernfarmer on Mar 15, 2022 13:55:59 GMT -6
I just had a chat with the electrician at their supply store ( they sell to contractors and farmers unlike some who only sell to contractors ) and he was adamant in that with a farm system where its already bonded by the power company at the transformer pole between the neutral and the ground that runs down into the grounding rod, that if there is no separate grounding wire ran to each power drop in the yard ( so another words using what was the traditional triplex overhead or the three wire USEB-90 ) that all breaker boxes and splitter boxes be bonded between neutral and ground. I was very surprised at that but he was very clear in that. Having said that, he said it was ok if lets say a splitter box is near the building where the breaker box is located and a ground wire was ran from the splitter enclosure box to the ground rod as well as the breaker box running its ground to the same ground rod and then the breaker box would be bonded by the bonding screw or a copper jumper wire used as the bonding device to connect the neutral buss bar to the enclosures ground buss bar. However if the splitter box was further away from any breaker panel, it should be bonded between neutral and its own enclosure ground and ground rod system.
He went on to say that USEB ( and yes typical to be a reduced copper neutral ) three wire underground is on its way out and instead its the three wire plus ground wire type armour cable that is taking its place and so with that style of power cable the neutral and ground would remain separate in splitter boxes and breaker panels as that grounding wire would connect all enclosures and ground buss bars to the grounding rods and be bonded only at the source of the power which would be the meter/breaker at the transformer. So entirely different ground to neutral bonding procedure depending on the type of power cable being utilized so its not a simple yes or no to down stream bonding from the source, its what type of power cable is being used that dictates how it should be done.
I was asking in regards to a 100 amp 240 volt breaker on the transformer pole situation and single phase of course, so not a large higher voltage service. Ken, I have not looked through the download link I posted other then seeing a crap load of pages and that the front cover was the same code handbook you linked to. I know exactly what you are saying Ken, its hard enough trying to find information in a physical book in your hands, extremely frustrating finding the same information on a pdf that is a few miles long but its free ... and everyone on here can have a copy courtesy this forum. You may have to tell me when and if you find anything that matches up with this electricians advice based on the three wire with no ground wire theme.
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Post by meskie on Mar 15, 2022 14:33:18 GMT -6
The last underground wire we ran was 3 wire plus a ground in armoured cable. This was a couple years ago and the electrician said that was the new code.
Actually it was ran on top of the ground for a couple years till we buried it. The old underground either corroded somewhere or it broke apart. Our one watering bowl lost power around this time of year so we just ran it on top of the ground temporarily till we the ground thawed as the electrician figured he could find the break. He never could find it and it actually had power to the panel when it warmed up. But once it turned cold again the power was lost. The original underground wire was just the two wire with a ground in it.
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Post by northernfarmer on Mar 15, 2022 18:54:08 GMT -6
So I went through most of my splitter boxes and breaker panels and in a couple of instances because of not being 100% sure of a proper bonding and not finding a bonding screw that was in theory supposed to be a part of the one breaker box type, I installed a couple of jumpers from the neutral bar to the ground bar. Some of the wiring I had done is so long ago now I had obviously forgotten that I was told then to bond the neutral to ground and I had in the older installations, just not in an obvious in your face way with the last breaker box swap I did just a few years ago. I even had some of the same wire I had used back ... its probably almost 30 years ago ( how time flies ) which the electrician recommended as the minimum for my 100 amp system, number 6 gauge copper with green insulation. Wishful thinking that this little change up realigned the stars in the world.
The last underground install I did, I used what was probably the same or similar cable to what you used meskie if yours was also aluminum, three insulated aluminum conductors and as weird as this seems the ground wire is also aluminum. I am honestly surprised that is allowed as aluminum just doesn't cut it like copper does when the shit flies, copper is an amazing substance that aluminum will never compare to, there is a reason why they have not allowed aluminum wiring in a house for many years now. I had run that armoured cable down from the top of a power pole where it tied into existing triplex running across the yard and then into a splitter box, then another length of it down into the ground and across the few feet to come up onto the outside of the building and ran into the wall. I was doubtful about USEB being suitable to being exposed outside and strapped to a pole, may have been to code but decided to get this and know for sure I was to code.
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Post by torriem on Mar 15, 2022 18:56:19 GMT -6
Makes some sense, northernfarmer . All the stuff we've put in in recent years is three conductor plus a copper ground in a nice metal armor and rubber jacket. I asked the electrician which color to use for common and he said it doesn't matter so long as you mark it with white tape in the panels so it's clear. He said they tend to use blue. As to the bonding thing, that also makes some sense. But inside of a building, all the subpanels should definitely not be bonded, lest you have some current running through the building and conduits itself (if it was a metal building). |
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Post by northernfarmer on Mar 15, 2022 19:48:33 GMT -6
Torriem, I was not so thrilled when I realized that cable I used more recently had an aluminum ground, aside from the fact I feel anyway that it doesn't have the ability copper has in being a protection device, it is more then likely larger in diameter and depending on the lugs for a ground may not fit and have to seek out larger grounding lugs in a box. But there was this other aspect that I had not counted on and that is its far more fragile and bends around like a wet noodle and the strands start splaying out and kink over easy when being handled. Its one thing when the main cables are aluminum and encased in the thermoplastic, its a whole other situation when smaller diameter aluminum is not encased in anything. I would certainly be looking for the copper ground style if its not too much more expensive like you used in your project. I have used teck90 cable in a 10 gauge sized wire for wiring plugs for the smallish type aeration fans I have ( 3 and 5 hp types ) with the sealing connections into weather resistant box and that cable type has the pvc coating on the outside of the armour as well as encasing all the wires inside of the aluminum spiral armour as well, of course all copper conductors. Nice cable but oh man its expensive between that and the fancy sealing terminators to the panel and the outlets. Of course that is what industrial wiring would use all the time and large sizes of it ... like for those grain elevators that rip us off when buying our grain for example !
I believe this last cable type had a red stripe wire and a blue stripe, then an all black wire so I used white phase tape on the black wire on all exposed ends in the splitter and breaker panel so there is no mistaking what is what.
As to that sub panel situation, that is how I got my mind twisted around lately due to thinking I had not done something correctly but in the end had done it proper for the materials used and not really having anything classified as a sub panel in this yard. I can see in a building all sorts of things happening that should not if a sub panel is not wired correctly and cause neutral to seek out all those metal objects as well as itself to return to the main panel, travelling along metal conduit, wondering why your body vibrates every time you lean against the wall and happen to touch the conduit and are standing in water etc.
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Post by torriem on Mar 15, 2022 23:37:22 GMT -6
Actually I am pretty sure all the armored cable I've used in the past few years was aluminum bare ground, not copper. Yes the aluminum is much harder to work with.
Here's a fun ground situation for you. My parents lived for 18 months in Nairobi, Kenya. Their apartment had a hot water heater right in the shower head. Bare 240 volt coil right in the water stream. Usually they have a ground wire in the water to bleed off any excess charge. My dad said when that ground wire is broken people do report getting mild shocks while showering. Pretty terrifying setup but I can attest after seeing it for myself it does heat the water really nicely. Don't think it would work with a gfci! The heater was fed off of a 40 amp circuit. Quite a lot of power there.
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Post by meskie on Mar 16, 2022 0:44:19 GMT -6
The wire we used was 3 aluminum wire with a bare copper wire. It was aluminum armoured with rubber on the outside of it.
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Post by northernfarmer on Mar 16, 2022 17:52:49 GMT -6
I was wondering who has had much to do with ecx screw drivers, be that insulated ones or non insulated. I am only assuming they come in number 1 and 2 Roberson equivalent sizes only. I've not tried shopping for them nor looking for a hex drive bit with that style either. I don't expect its a common item to just any hardware store or I've never come across one anyway.
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Post by torriem on Mar 16, 2022 18:51:08 GMT -6
So that's what those screwdrivers are. I bought a set of screwdrivers at Canadian tire a while back and wondered what to do with the 2 or 3 screwdrivers with what seemed to be a flat and robertson combined of various sizes. Now I know! They are all uninsulated. I'll have to start using them now!
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Post by torriem on Mar 16, 2022 19:15:37 GMT -6
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Post by northernfarmer on Mar 16, 2022 19:20:23 GMT -6
That is some years ago since I grabbed a set of screw drivers on one of their good sales at Canadian tire, back then they didn't have such a thing as I assume its a more recent style that came out. I've found it really frustrating with some of the number 1 size combo blade screws as the roberson wants to spin and ruin the screw way too easy. Without a doubt Torriem if you happen to be working with a panel that may have some of those screw heads and certainly they use them on typical duplex electrical outlets. At least you have the tools now and next time you are confronted with those screws you have that option to use those drivers.
That blows me away with the hot water system situation your parents were using in Africa, certainly give you a "jolt" in the morning and not need coffee like so many seem to need over on this side of the pond. I am also amazed at the 230 volt systems in Europe or Australia, half the amperage though but just the idea of everything one plugs in puts single line 230 volts in your hands tool wise etc.
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Post by kenmb on Mar 16, 2022 22:54:19 GMT -6
I can't comment on what is correct regarding code without having the code book to read my self and more importantly the handbook. The code book is like reading legal communication. I still have to think about what the word "not withstanding" means and yet it is by far the most commonly used words in the code book.
One thing that might help in understanding the service installation is exactly what the words are of the cable being installed. I think NF called it USEI, i beleive I have seen it labelled USC or something like that. Off the top of my head I can't say with confidence what those letters mean other than U = underground and S= service.
The U is self explanatory but also means it can't be run inside a building. I had a bunch of extra length for a install I did at the farm inside a building and I was not allowed to run the underground conductor up the wall and elsewhere in the building. It is an underground cable and required being terminated in a box a close as practical to where it came out of the ground.
The second word "service" also means just what it says. It's a service conductor, not a feeder. Meaning it can be run from the main service transformer, meter, panel to the first destination in the yard but not intended to be run wherever you have a desire to have an cable buried. The code book also has interesting criteria that are allowed for a "service that are different than when running a sub feed. But then this get back so what we are talking about with having a neutral and ground seperate on a sub feed. A service conductor has no such ability and is therefore why you can't use it exiting a sub-panel.
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Post by kenmb on Mar 16, 2022 23:15:21 GMT -6
I beleive USEI means underground service entrance installation. USC means underground service cable. Not 100% on this as a quick search didn't give the answer in clear terms. But am pretty sure how the cable can be installed is right there on the sheath in the letters usei. And being a 3 conductor also tells you a lot about bonding ground and neutral at the main panel and not grounding bond and neutral at sub panels. What I mean is if you could bond the neutral and ground at sub panel to basically create a three wire system (2 hots + neutral/ground) then you should be able to run a USEI cable from a sub panel. But then that would negate all need to call it a "service" conductor if you could use it anywhere.
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Post by OptimallyDismal on Mar 17, 2022 6:59:14 GMT -6
I liked the USEB cable because of the concentric neutral, in our stony land I thought it would protect itself from stones drilling into it, they don't allow it in Manitoba anymore I am told. USEI is what they sell, so black white and red colors. On my last project I had to use it so I put it in a pipe, makes it more expensive and I am thinking harder to find a ground fault if one happens.
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