bruced
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Post by bruced on Aug 20, 2021 20:39:53 GMT -6
Firstly, thanks to those responsible for creating this new forum.
I thought it would be a simple matter to replace the water pump seal in a M11 fitted to a 9350 Steiger. It is not so it seems, and looks like it can't be done without the special Cummins tool #3376542. The tool from Cummins is $2,700.00 AU ex Belgium. I haven't found a local branch I could travel to that has this tool, to have them remove the impeller.
An exchange water pump from Cummins is $1110.00AU. $350.00AU for the timing cover seal. $350.00 refundable for the core exchange.
An aftermarket pump is about $600 whether it be Interstate-McBee or PAI. Opinions on the quality of these brands would be appreciated. I lean towards PAI at present.
It looks like I have cracked the old impeller attempting to remove it with the tools I have, but I would like to know if an aftermarket rebuild kit can be installed in these pumps and where a suitable puller can be sourced at a reasonable price. Kits look to be about $100 but I haven't found any detailed instructions for doing it nor have I found any diesel mechanics that have done it or can advise.
Thanks.  Regards, Bruce.
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Post by Albertabuck on Aug 20, 2021 22:17:46 GMT -6
Hi Bruce and welcome. Just on my way to bed but thought I'd reply before I did. Have never done one for the M11 or L10 so not sure whats involved. I checked and yea thats even a pricey SOB here in Canada too, @600 Can for PAI, surprises me, but I guess maybe being gear drive and such adds to it, as about a year ago I bought some Chinese new one for a Big Cam 855 and it was under 200 Can. and there was no core. For that kind of money, it's cheap enough, and being able to keep my original I intend to get a kit and rebuild it sometime when I have time, then I got a spare as a few of them engines around here.
My experience is avoid Cummins dealers for stuff like this, they have gotten completely insane on many of the parts for older engines. I got bent over on some top end gaskets for the Jakes and rocker boxes on the 855s, I just about lost it when they handed me a $700 bill for a few gaskets, like 35 for the cork rocker cover ones...thats just nuts and I will never go back. I only took them because I've been set up with them for years and didn't want someone blackballing me on the computer in case someday I have an emergency and need them to help me out. Its all aftermarket now, even for the N14.
I usually invent some way of being able to press things like that apart for when I need, most water pumps usually lend themselves to be fairly easy to do so when the price dictates rebuild is the way to go. Impeller should be part of the rebuild kit, they usually are with most pumps I have ever done.
Either of the aftermarket pumps would be ok, both of them companies have history and been around a while. Becareful of some of the chinese shit, can be casting issues and more with them. I run into several issues with the one I got for the 361 Ford Industrial in my Stackcrusier, actually had to stick it in the press and relocate the drive hub and more, but we are losing options on buying some of them parts these days.
Very few shops in this part of the country do rebuilds anymore of anything, they just replace with remans, rebuilding is a specialized thing now, and even here, I would have no idea of where to suggest taking a water pump. Alternator or starter ect, thats different, kind of like fuel injection.
Good luck.
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bruced
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Post by bruced on Aug 21, 2021 4:51:15 GMT -6
Thanks AB. I was hoping you would chime in. I have read a lot of your posts over the years and have found them very knowledgeable, interesting and helpful. Thanks for that. My only worry is that if you don't know, no one else will either.
I have posted a couple of times on the other site, but not here til now. I forgot to mention that I'm in Australia.
I might be wrong with the PAI price. There are none for M11's in Australia yet but I am assuming they will all be about the same money. Do you know where the PAI ones are made? Interstate-McBee's are made in India.
I agree, I would rather fit an aftermarket pump, keep the old one, and put a kit in the old one as a spare.
The only puller I had, with jaws small enough to fit, was a smallish bearing puller. I think because it didn't apply force evenly over 360 degrees I have twisted the impeller and cracked it. The Cummins puller looks to have a hard pin about 5mm diameter that that pushes through the bottom of the impeller. I can't really fathom how it should come apart. I enclose another photo and a diagram.  |
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bruced
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Post by bruced on Aug 21, 2021 4:57:39 GMT -6
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daryl672
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Post by daryl672 on Aug 21, 2021 6:10:37 GMT -6
I would try using your puller again to put a decent amount of pressure on it and heat the impeller hub right around the shaft with a torch. it might just pop off once that hub expands from the heat
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bruced
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Post by bruced on Aug 21, 2021 18:31:26 GMT -6
Thanks for your reply Daryl. I had been trying to avoid ruining the impeller, but the damage is done now, so heat will be next I guess.
To apply force (push) through that small hole at the base of the larger hole in the photo the pin has to be probably grade 12 or better and be able to be held stable. Things I have tried so far have bent. The bore of the impeller appears to be "blind", save for the small (5mm) central hole. The pdf diagram shows the pin design.
I have a few contacts at Cummins so will see if they can locate a tool, travel to them, and pay them to do it.
I would like to work out how to do this for future reference.
I have no idea why someone would design something like this.
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Post by Albertabuck on Aug 21, 2021 19:23:40 GMT -6
Unfortunately my computer does not like your link, it won't open direct, it wants to download a pdf file direct into my document folder and my malware system said nope, not happening lol. I just did some quick checking, unfortunately my one L10 manual isn't where it should be, have the troubleshooting one but need the other for the water pump. When I looked up the pump lastnite, the one that come up was gear driven...is yours gear or belt drive? There may also two different ones, shit I forget what it said in that one L10 book, something about super cooling or such, was different instructions for each application, so something is different there. Possible the M11 only uses one. My M11 manuals are all on CDrom piggy backed with other manuals so I gotta run off memory to find them. Now that tool you mention, by part number it is not required by a Cummins dealer to have, given its their practice to replace with a reman. I have the Cummins service tool master catalog, now given it is a few years old, but that tool is not listed in that book. But trying to picture what it looks like, I found this from OTC... www.freedomracing.com/otc-5071-water-pump-pulley-remover.htmlIt replaces the exact same Cummins number, but is actually for the pulley, not the impeller. In your picture of your water pump, where does it come apart? Does that chrome looking hub pull off a shaft or does the impeller come off the hub? It looks like there is a lip at the top of the hub, which one should be able to grab hold of with some kind of puller and press against the shaft down inside. Or does the pulley come off and then you press the whole shaft assembly out the back of the pump? One has to get into the actual repair manual for them engines to see exactly how that pump comes apart. I got one here somewhere, I just need the time to find and read that...and that unfortunately is something I don't have at the moment. |
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bruced
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Post by bruced on Aug 21, 2021 20:13:27 GMT -6
The Cummins puller is in two halves. A compression ring goes over those two halves to hold them together when they are assembled in the groove at the top of the impeller. Then a pin, 11mm OD, fits inside the bore shown in the original photo. The bottom part of the pin must only be about 5mm diameter. It seems that bottom part of the pin must push through the small hole in the bottom of the impeller bore. A pushing bolt then screws down on top of the pin.
It is difficult to tell, but I think the photo shows the blind bottom of the 11mm bore in the impeller. I don't think you are looking at the end of the shaft there.
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bruced
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Post by bruced on Aug 21, 2021 20:22:47 GMT -6
I took a couple of photos from a friends M11 manual when in Wagga recently. I could borrow it if needed.  |
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bruced
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Post by bruced on Aug 21, 2021 20:28:27 GMT -6
Looks like you use a different pin for a 555.  |
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bruced
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Post by bruced on Aug 21, 2021 20:50:04 GMT -6
To answer your questions AB.
The brass coloured hub with the groove and the fibre impeller are one unit.
The lip that you mention is where the two puller halves attach.
The pulley end of the shaft is stepped, so the impeller has to come off before the shaft can be removed from the other end.
The pump is gear driven via the timing case. The alternator belt drive pulley attaches to the very end of the shaft.
Cummins number 34849579 will get you to the right water pump for an exploded diagram.
Thanks very much for your interest and help but please don't spend time you don't have on my problem.
Regards and Thanks, Bruce.
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CTS2
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Post by CTS2 on Aug 22, 2021 4:06:00 GMT -6
Unfortunately I can't be any help regarding this water pump. But if you find any good non-genuine Cummins parts suppliers in Australia, or already know of any, I would be interested to hear about them.
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bruced
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Post by bruced on Aug 22, 2021 5:15:40 GMT -6
I don't have a lot of experience in buying non genuine Cummins parts CTS. I like parts made in the US and I loath anything Chinese.
I have asked around re the API Industries M11 water pump and I am not sure, but I think it is made in the U.S. Their website claims it is.
Cummins used to rebuild water pumps in Melbourne. Now they pack them up and send them to either Mexico or Brazil (?) What has really annoyed me with Cummins is the price of the timing cover seal at $350. In the US they are $17 US.
I have recently had a good experience with Engine Australia in Dalby,Qld. I think I would start there. I think they would guide you honestly re good quality aftermarket. I know they have piston rings made in England from time to time for impossible to source parts for engines. They have been around for a long time. I think they have branches in some capital cities as well.
Maxiparts is generally where I go for trailer and truck parts. They have some engine parts for Cummins, Mack, Volvo etc.
Diesel and Industrial (dai.com.au) is another name. Also ITR Pacific (itrpacific.com.au).
I hope this is of use.
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CTS2
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Post by CTS2 on Aug 22, 2021 6:11:23 GMT -6
Thanks for the reply. Yes, I agree about well made good quality parts, for a lot of applications I try to get the best.
But my question was prompted by being quoted around $150 AUD for a Cummins oil filler cap. For something non-critical like that, I would rather find something cheaper.
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bruced
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Post by bruced on Aug 22, 2021 17:17:52 GMT -6
Search the part number and you will find plenty.
Trucking Supplies are truck wreckers in Wagga plus several other branches.
Ray Hartley, Wagga also.
Truckline.
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