|
Post by kenmb on Aug 5, 2021 21:10:04 GMT -6
Drove a few trucks. Found I liked the medium duty ones better. Have to keep reminding myself all I need to do is haul a few miles 99% of the time. And more importantly be something easy for someone else to drive otherwise I would get another old hi way tractor with manual transmission.
Drove a couple Freightliners full size units with Detroit's and automated transmissions, 10 and 13 speeds. They seemed to want to shift pretty much every gear even empty. The 10 speed didn't mind so much but the 13 was kind of annoying hitting pretty much every gear from 0 to 65mph and the shifts were firm. Plus the climb up to the cab would get old after a long day. Came to appreciate the old KW with the wide step that is laid out like a stair case vs a vertical ladder on those FLs. Yes, i can notice the 450hp, do I need it, not really. Unless I change how I use the truck.
Drove some medium duty units with Allison's. IH 2004 4400 with DT466 and 5 speed. 2003 FL M2 with Mercedes 280hp and 6 speed, and 2007 IH 7400 with DT570 and 6 speed. Really liked the last one with the way it drove. Seemed the 9.3l and 6 speed really worked well together. The other two were both short on power and the transmission didn't do much to help things out. I wasn't paying attention to rpms vs 65 mph on any truck so cant say about gearing but that may have been a factor. That 7400 has a walking axle with no suspension so familiar ground. Rough on pavement but not bad otherwise.
I think if was to go for an automated transmission truck I would want to try an 18 speed to see how the gear choice is managed. Right now I liked the Allison and so just a matter of deciding if I take one home. From there I can see how it works out around the farm and carrying a load out the field.
|
|
|
Post by Beerwiser on Aug 5, 2021 21:41:36 GMT -6
Out of curiosity, anyone know what prices are to stretch a frame now? Used to be pretty reasonable to stretch a highway tractor and throw a box on.
|
|
Mags
New Member
Posts: 40 Likes: 12
|
Post by Mags on Aug 5, 2021 22:23:08 GMT -6
ABC quoted me last week ~ 35000 depending on options.
|
|
|
Post by Albertabuck on Aug 5, 2021 23:00:38 GMT -6
I'm not sure what the cost on a stretch would be, honestly any I was involved with, we did them ourselves. I know some prefer on a short stretch to simply relocate the suspension, I prefer to just chop and weld. Having the actual proper inserts and extra cross members do make it more simple, one of the benefits of having "extra parts" out back lol. My '79 Star that I'm still in the process of putting the gravel box on was one where they had moved the suspension back when they added the sleeper, so was real easy for me to put it back ahead where it used to be for what I needed, lost the sleeper and things were perfect for the 15 ft box. While I think of this, a very important issue on any older truck nowadays is if there is any "rust jacking" occurring between the frame components. Tis is where rust is accumulating and growing, and actually pushing things apart. It is now grounds for out of service during roadside, and a instant fail on CVIP. My old Star was really bad when I bought it, and when it come to pass I realized the old truck was worth spending some time on instead of junking for parts as originally intended, for me it worked well to completely disassemble the entire rear frame sections, suspension, everything, roll the axles ahead and rebolt everything back together. Was a lot of work, but I got the truck for next to nothing and its something that will serve me for as long as I need it and I like my old trucks, so I saw it as worthwhile. If you need to hire someone to do it, now you really need to start figuring if it is all worth it. Think I have some pics of that whole job, think they stil on my old phone, sometime I'll try to post a few. From what I have heard over the years, avoid Mercedes truck engines, especially if they are running towards the high end of their respective hp ratings. As for suspension, for a farm truck actually anything with walking beam is the best. Be it hockey pucks like Ken's, Hendrickson with springs, or similar setups like the Big Six I have in my old HD KW, or the camel back in Mack. Another one that is an excellent one is Chalmers. I have the 600 in my Star. Most out there, if you can find one, are usually the 700, and in my opinion is one of the best all mechanical suspensions available. The huge advantage to a walking beam is you always have equal weight on all four tires. There is a reason all the heavy and offroad oilfield trucks run such suspension, it gives you the best traction and stability control possible. One option is an air ride system, and that is that Air Link, which is a bolt in replacement for Hendrickson spring and hockey puck, Mack and others. It maintains the walking beam connection to the axle, but an air ride between the frame. As some of you already know, I actually worked with the people who invented and originally manufactured it, along with being involved with prototypes and development. I have some rather unique memories that arose from different things during that time, kind of neat to be involved with something like that. In my opinion, it is a better riding suspension that Chalmers, which uses rubber springs that are really big rubber balls. The Air Link is smoother empty, but its impossible to beat the flexibility of the Chalmers. So to put it bluntly, in an HD application, IMO there are two suspensions worthy of respect, mechanical, Chalmers, air ride, Air Link. With that said, there are some not bad four bag systems out there, I would suggest avoiding the 8 bag ones. Some systems do not maintain equal weight on each wheel, things don't compensate fast enough, like when you can spin out driving over a 2X4. Don't say it can't happen, it does and its a great way to drop drive lines or twist off an axle. Its one of the biggest reasons why I don't care for air ride in a HD operation. Ken mentioned the mid size trucks...nothing wrong with them, but remember, the cabs are usually smaller than the larger class 8s. I for example can not sit in an S series IH or its counterparts. I am not really fat, I'm just big and tall, and when I sit in one, I have the steering wheel in my guts and my knee is hitting the wheel when I go for the clutch. Make sure you can sit in whatever you drive. Even some of the bigger units can give issues for larger people, an R series Mack is another I can not sit in and drive for and extended period either. Even my old '72 HD KW has had some tweaking done to make it possible I could sit in it all day or nite, sometimes both lol. This is why I went with a 9000 series IH for myself, I needed the bigger cab. I still say an Allison is the way to go for Ken's application. As for gear type transmissions, its relative to HP and load. I have a 10spd Merritor in my IH, with 435 N14 in front of it, for what I do, its more than adequate. Would I be comfortable with an inexperienced driver in the same with some of the loads I get into, no. But within reason, while not idea, it works. I know few will agree with how I look at a truck as to what is good or bad. But then I have been places with them where many would shit their pants with their pickups. I'm old school, I'm not fancy, I like tough and practical. But Ken and others, buy whatever twists your crank, you're the one paying for it and gotta drive it. For those unfamiliar, links to both Air Link and Chalmers. Neither is very common and I know many will have never seen either one. www.linkmfg.com/products/chassis-suspensions/air-link-tdwww.chalmerssuspensions.com/
|
|
|
Post by kenmb on Aug 6, 2021 7:03:24 GMT -6
The one guy has Load Line in Manitoba install the boxes. Says he pays $4500 for them to stretch a frame. From what I see both CIM and Load Line cut the frame, add a second piece of c-channel to overlap the cut and weld/bolt it together. Both companies have been at it for a long time. Cab size isn't something that ever crossed my mind before. I am 6 ft and skinny and can turn myself into a pretzel to get into awkward spots to wrench on something but I did not care at all for climbing straight up into a cab. I could certainly redesign some steps I suspect but not something I would have ever thought of. I just figured all trucks were a hop up and into the cab - not so. From a pulling wrench standpoint, I can also appreciate the long nose hoods. Can access the engine bay very easily. But the visibility of these short hood/set back engine units has its attraction for getting the wife better trained on how to handle 25 tonnes. Makes the overall vehicle less intimidating when not looking over 6 feet of hood and so better feel for handling the truck in the yard and around the auger. I remember watching a video a couple years ago of the early Hendrickson walking beam suspension working, found it quite interesting. As AB says, they have their advantages. A farm truck with grain box is a good application. A little rough when empty sure, but doesn't need any attention or auxiliary equipment to make it work as designed. I used to know exactly which Hendrickson the KW has, it is the one with the large rubber isolators right under the brackets that bolt to the frame. This is the one the IH has. www.hendrickson-intl.com/products/haulmaax/haulmaax-heavy-duty-rubber-suspension
|
|
|
Post by kenmb on Aug 22, 2021 12:38:47 GMT -6
Rainy day so may as well post here. Took home the IH 7400 a couple weeks ago. The hour drive home told me its a rough riding sob, much worse than the KW. The front axle is 16k rated and the part #s on front springs say they are 7,100lb each so will change those out to a softer option in winter. Maybe 5,600lb, not sure. Need to do some figuring there. Not much for owner postings to be found regarding the Haulmaax suspension. What I did notice is the center block is supposed to be tight to the shims underneath it, or minimal gap, the shims provide some user customization. On the IH those center blocks are worn away a good 1.5" as well as top shim of 3 shim stack is wore through and part of second shim. This extra travel allows for abnormal suspension movement and no doubt harshness when the movement is abruptly stopped by the worn away load spring. Hendrickson came out with a progressive load spring a few years ago so I got those in this weekend. Will see how it rides later. The Allison is quite nice to drive. I only took a couple loads with it but handles the load fine. Left the truck in the field overnight with 650bu of peas. Start it up the next day, put it in drive at idle and starts rolling along at 5 mph. I was expecting needing throttle for the converter to spin up and get moving. Not so. An interesting thing occurred in that the wife discovered she likes driving the KW. The IH is pretty rough so that got her giving the KW a better try. And visibility with the IH is really good so she got comfortable with maneuvering that in the yard to auger and now is more confident driving the KW and can concentrate more on shifting. So maybe in a couple years can go back to a standard transmission truck. I need to check the trans tag and figure out which Allison is in the IH. So far it's turning out well, got a steering box seal kit on order and fixed another bad oil leak with a 1 cent oring. I thought it would take the wife a season to get comfortable with handling the trucks but having an easy truck to drive really sped things up. In her words she can back up like a pro now.
|
|
|
Post by northernfarmer on Aug 22, 2021 13:44:49 GMT -6
Ken, do you have access to a scale near by, or grain elevator where you can get an idea on what the front axle weighs with a load on it as that might help determine if its advisable to go to lighter springs. The truck wheel base and where the center line of the box is relative to the tandem set makes all the difference in where the weight goes on. Are those a two leaf front spring rather then the multi spring pack traditional years ago that usually does ride horrible.
|
|
|
Post by kenmb on Aug 22, 2021 17:36:39 GMT -6
Yeah NF, that is part of the figuring I need to do. Think I could take a full load to elevator and put front axle on scale and get a reading before pulling right on to scale. That should give me a reference point.
Truck frame wasn't modified so it has a 19' box (I measure it as 18.5') with 64" sides. I beleive the box position will put a little more weight on front axle than what I am familiar with in the KW.
Yes,springs are 2 leaf. They use 1" bolts to mount to hangers. That is my one headache to deal with. There are no lower rated springs with 1" bushings so the lower rate springs use 3/4 bolts. Would need to put a 1>3/4"steel bushing in the hangers. I could change the hangers but that doesn't look too easy. Don't think using bushings would be a big no-no though.
|
|
|
Post by Albertabuck on Aug 22, 2021 22:11:10 GMT -6
Ken talk to a spring shop, they can make any kind of spring you want or need, making a lighter set with large bushings is childs play. Last set of custom ones I had made are in my KW winch tractor, two leaf tapered with double curl, that meaning the lower leaf has a curl that fits over the curl and bushing of the top leaf...its an additional saftey thing so if you spudded a bad muskrat run or such, while you might break the end off the first leaf, the second one was there, and yea they then drive like hearding sheep down the road but at least you can keep going. We also used to get the bushings welded into that first curl as well. So with all that, was 25 years ago at least, think the springs themseleves were around 600, had Northwest Spring and Steering in Edmonton make them. Like the price, Northwest is long gone, so is McCoys, Scona and more. City Spring is still around, but not sure if they are outside AB. But any large commercial spring shop can do this.
Out of curiosity, what is overall length from pin to pin on your existing springs?
Oh and with your new ones, if you can, go with threaded pins, yes more money, but virtually no grief with greasing. All the heavy duty stuff used them years ago, but most modern ones cheap out and use smooth pins and bushings, bit of dust and they get dry from lack of grease and you're screwed. One of the biggest things I hated about an R Series Mack front end.
|
|
|
Post by kenmb on Aug 23, 2021 7:29:43 GMT -6
I have made a couple calls AB because what you say is also my past experience. Talked with Regina Spring Service and then another company in BC because they advertise specialty springs. The general response was they work with existing spring designs listed in say the Dayton catalogue. They will add or remove leafs to modify for an application but outright custom build they don't want to get into. Many years ago it seemed to me these shops would custom build as the first option. Yes, the stock springs are as you describe with the 2nd leaf curling around the front eye, the rear of the leaf is flat against the rear eye. No grease points on the spring bolts which I found odd. These 2 pages are from the Dayton catalogue, drawing of spring is not representative of what's in the truck but dimensions are correct. I emailed Dayton to see if there is something that would prevent the spring from a driven front axle fit into a non drive axle application. Will have to see what they say. It's odd that they are listed separately in the catalogue so my guess is a locating pin is different in the two applications. 55-1258 is what I have now, the oem part # listed is the part # on my spring. Once I get some more details sorted out I can go back to a local spring shop and talk with them face to face with some drawings and see if they can supply/build what I need in some form. I know very well I don't get my questions across very well over a phone.
|
|
|
Post by kenmb on Aug 23, 2021 8:46:11 GMT -6
Typo in above, 55-1256 is what I have. Dayton replied and does not recommend changing springs, so now my question to them is why not.
No one in this world wants to do anything that is not already rubber stamped by someone else. Because that means applying thought and knowledge and experience to come up with a solution. Probably why we were so busy as electrical techs - are job was to solve problems and make custom solution for pretty much everything we came across.
|
|
|
Post by Albertabuck on Aug 23, 2021 8:48:22 GMT -6
Thanks for the numbers Ken, gonna do some comparisons. Oh and I think you need to find a different spring shop lol, OMG they sell out of a cataloge? An outfit like City Spring even makes their own U bolts, sure they sell some premanufactured items, but vast majority is custom built on site...thats kind of the whole idea behind being a "spring shop"
|
|
|
Post by Beerwiser on Aug 24, 2021 8:14:41 GMT -6
Last time I dealt with city spring they wouldn't make me custom springs, I want a 6" lift for my ih scout. And when I needed to replace a front spring in the freight shaker they were more money than dealer.
|
|
|
Post by Albertabuck on Aug 24, 2021 12:43:41 GMT -6
Actually Beer I can see why they wouldn't build what you asked for, sum it up in one word, liability. If you were trying to acomplish a 6 inch lift with leaf springs, that changes the whole elliptical geometry of the springs and would also most likely effect the handling as well. They aint gonna touch that with a ten foot pole.
And yes on some common spring packs you can buy them cheaper elsewhere. You won't see me buying Reyco packs there, no I'll go to Traction or Ft Gary, but for something like the Neway in my oilfield float, wouldn't even bother wasting my time anywhere else. Depends on application.
|
|
|
Post by kenmb on Aug 25, 2021 9:22:55 GMT -6
Well, I figure I can use one the spring options listed for the driven front axle. Guy from Dayton wouldn't give me any info or details on whether the center area of the driven vs non-driven axle were different. Gave me a line about not wanting to give a customer any info because he might choose wrong. I am seeing a pattern in society these days. So I will just use my best guess. Which of course puts an interesting point on not providing information because it is apparently safer that way. I suspect I will find something I need to modify where the axle pad interfaces with spring but should be something a guy can sort out. It can wait till winter time when there is lots of time to deal with something unknown popping up.
|
|