bertie
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Post by bertie on Feb 22, 2021 13:27:31 GMT -6
Say you have a little creek running across one of your quarters.
Say you have a new neighbour that wants to dig out that creek so that a few acres on his quarter drain better. This drainage work helps him, and a couple neighbours, but doesn't have any benefit to you.
Say you tell him he can do a little bit of defined work to remove obstructions in the creek, but to dig out the creekbed and sides will require permission from the gov't since you (landowner) are not willing to accept liability for damaging waterways. You know, and you tell him that as the law goes, it is the landowner who is ultimately responsible for damages and is the one charged with any fines and the cost repair work. You say, let's look into getting approval over winter.
Say he decides to go do the whole thing anyway when you're not looking, almost gets it all done too.
Now what?
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Post by snapper22 on Feb 22, 2021 13:49:29 GMT -6
Say you have a little creek running across one of your quarters. Say you have a new neighbour that wants to dig out that creek so that a few acres on his quarter drain better. This drainage work helps him, and a couple neighbours, but doesn't have any benefit to you. Say you tell him he can do a little bit of defined work to remove obstructions in the creek, but to dig out the creekbed and sides will require permission from the gov't since you (landowner) are not willing to accept liability for damaging waterways. You know, and you tell him that as the law goes, it is the landowner who is ultimately responsible for damages and is the one charged with any fines and the cost repair work. You say, let's look into getting approval over winter. Say he decides to go do the whole thing anyway when you're not looking, almost gets it all done too. Now what? Call sask water from a blocked number with a sock over the receiver and ask someone. |
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Post by Albertabuck on Feb 22, 2021 13:51:32 GMT -6
You don't say or have on your profile where you are from, welcome btw, see you are new, if in AB, get a lawyer, once AB Environment finds out you will need one. Messing with an existing waterway or body is a huge no no without permits. Ultimately the buck stops with you, so your lawyer can do double duty, try to save your ass with Environment and sue your wonderful new neighbor while he's at it. I'm gonna guess there is more to the story, but I'd becareful saying much at this point. Good luck.
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Post by Beerwiser on Feb 22, 2021 14:22:53 GMT -6
Yup, depending on where you are located rules are different. With AB environment you are allowed to clean registered water ways without a permit, but can not make them deeper or wider. I have a small man made drainage going back into the 30's that I regularly clean out some of the overburden. I first asked AB environment and that is what they told me. Now I am in a fight with the county and stupid ducks to get the main drainage cleared up, because it is backing up for everyone.
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bertie
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Post by bertie on Feb 22, 2021 19:09:16 GMT -6
Yeah this hypothetical situation would be in Alberta. you have the option to 'let it be', please your neighbours, don't cause a fuss, hope AB Enviro never finds out.
or sue him, but the other neighbours (whom you might want to rent or buy land from some day) might not look favourably on you as a neighbour for it. What could be gained by suing?
or maybe sign an agreement with him assuming liability, but then he still gets what he wants by going and doing work on your land without your permission, and your neighbour knows he can walk all over you.
what other ideas are there?
do you push the dirt back in?
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Post by Oatking on Feb 22, 2021 19:24:54 GMT -6
Good thread bertie, This is a pretty common problem spoken at kitchen tables. Most of the time guys can sort it out between them selves just like a spray drift problem, but every once in while you get a d ick weed of a neighbor who you can not reason with. Most of the time now a days if its a significant drain you need to apply for a drainage license. If its clean out only a license is not needed.
Bertie if you are interested in farming this land maybe make a deal where he does some agreed upon drainage on your quarter. This may actually work out better for you in the long run. Never say no to drainage. Tell him you want the grade lasered to have good runoff.
One year my renter got a chance to get 50 000 dollars of drainage from the pipe line company. I had to twist the arm of my land owner at the time but now the field is worth more and I have had good crops on it.
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Post by cptusa on Feb 22, 2021 20:17:39 GMT -6
Yeah this hypothetical situation would be in Alberta. you have the option to 'let it be', please your neighbours, don't cause a fuss, hope AB Enviro never finds out. or sue him, but the other neighbours (whom you might want to rent or buy land from some day) might not look favourably on you as a neighbour for it. What could be gained by suing? or maybe sign an agreement with him assuming liability, but then he still gets what he wants by going and doing work on your land without your permission, and your neighbour knows he can walk all over you. what other ideas are there? do you push the dirt back in? Need some clarification. Initially I read your post as he was doing upstream work on his land to make it better for himself naturally. But then you post later he is going on your land with out permission and doing dirt work on your land against your wishes and with out your permission. If it's actually the second scenario, like f'ing hell that happens. There a difference between working with a neighbor and being a doormat. |
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Post by Albertabuck on Feb 22, 2021 20:23:57 GMT -6
Yeah this hypothetical situation would be in Alberta. you have the option to 'let it be', please your neighbours, don't cause a fuss, hope AB Enviro never finds out. or sue him, but the other neighbours (whom you might want to rent or buy land from some day) might not look favourably on you as a neighbour for it. What could be gained by suing? or maybe sign an agreement with him assuming liability, but then he still gets what he wants by going and doing work on your land without your permission, and your neighbour knows he can walk all over you. what other ideas are there? do you push the dirt back in? Reason I said you may have to sue him is because if AB Enviro finds out and comes after you, that is gonna get expensive and they aren't gonna care that it was someone else did it without your permission, they are only going to come after you...and the cost and aftermath of that is gonna be your own affair to deal with. |
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Post by Albertabuck on Feb 22, 2021 20:27:15 GMT -6
Yeah this hypothetical situation would be in Alberta. you have the option to 'let it be', please your neighbours, don't cause a fuss, hope AB Enviro never finds out. or sue him, but the other neighbours (whom you might want to rent or buy land from some day) might not look favourably on you as a neighbour for it. What could be gained by suing? or maybe sign an agreement with him assuming liability, but then he still gets what he wants by going and doing work on your land without your permission, and your neighbour knows he can walk all over you. what other ideas are there? do you push the dirt back in? If it's actually the second scenario, like f'ing hell that happens. There a difference between working with a neighbor and being a doormat. I was going to add that exact comment to my last post Capt but held back lol |
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bertie
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Post by bertie on Feb 22, 2021 22:20:59 GMT -6
Need some clarification. Initially I read your post as he was doing upstream work on his land to make it better for himself naturally. But then you post later he is going on your land with out permission and doing dirt work on your land against your wishes and with out your permission. If it's actually the second scenario, like f'ing hell that happens. There a difference between working with a neighbor and being a doormat. to clarify: he had permission to hire someone to perform some work on my land, but the scope performed was much greater than what we agreed on. took maybe 6x longer. We discussed the work he did, but he did not have permission to go to that extent. it's hard to go into details, must be vague to respect all parties' anonymity. I'm not here to air dirty laundry or trash the guy's name, just looking for reasonable solutions. the attitude around here regarding drainage is akin to "shoot, shovel, and shut up" i.e. I won't tell if you won't tell. Reason I said you may have to sue him is because if AB Enviro finds out and comes after you, that is gonna get expensive and they aren't gonna care that it was someone else did it without your permission, they are only going to come after you...and the cost and aftermath of that is gonna be your own affair to deal with. simple question, may have to sue him for what? as in, how does suing protect me from AB Enviro? what do I get out of suing? |
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Post by SWMan on Feb 22, 2021 22:45:38 GMT -6
It's almost always much better for the downstream guy if the upstream water is drained properly and not trickling across for an extended period of time making it sour and wet.
If the guy did a good job and paid for the work I'd be pleased and move on. No point in making a fuss about progress. If it was a butcher job it should be made right.
Water runs downhill, that's the way it is...
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Post by Beerwiser on Feb 22, 2021 23:27:12 GMT -6
The only thing that concerns me is the amount of work that was done and no permits. How many people downstream yet? I would be giving this lady a call to cover your ass provided you are in the northern area.
Kathryn Stacey
(780)427-6636
kathryn.stacey@gov.ab.ca
Shoot, shovel, and shut up doesn't help you if others start getting flooded, trust me.
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Post by Albertabuck on Feb 23, 2021 10:36:44 GMT -6
If AB Enviro finds out and comes after you they are not going to simply slap you on the wrist and say you were a bad boy and don't do it again. You will receive a substantial fine, and you will financially have to foot the bill to have things returned to former specs at their discretion and their satisfaction. Neither will be cheap. It don't sound like you have had any experience of just what kind of outfit they are to deal with when they are on the war path, believe me, that is somewhere you do not want to go. It is that way as a deterrent to folks doing exactly like what happened here. If you want to simply pay this and smile, then do so, but if you had even a verbal agreement that someone breached, then your only recourse is to sue to recover your losses.
As for info in your last post, if you gave permission, then you will bear all the consequences. Again I say good luck, hopefully it goes unnoticed. However if suddenly water starts effecting folks downstream, there will be back lash and that is most likely where the work done on yours will be brought to Enviro's attention.
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Post by Albertabuck on Feb 23, 2021 10:44:54 GMT -6
It's almost always much better for the downstream guy if the upstream water is drained properly and not trickling across for an extended period of time making it sour and wet. If the guy did a good job and paid for the work I'd be pleased and move on. No point in making a fuss about progress. If it was a butcher job it should be made right. Water runs downhill, that's the way it is... While you are totally right in logic, in reality its a different story. Maybe Manitoba is different, but out here its somewhere you tread very lightly. You want to be very discrete about things, like I said years ago over the dark side, most of my ditching is done with a 20 foot Deere Surflex while things in summerfallow, no one even notices anything is going on. But then I also make sure I do it in a way I'm not flooding out the next guy, because well most of my farm is the highest point on the horizon and like you say, water def runs downhill. But where you get into a whole different can of worms is an exsiting and or registered waterway, those are protected and some even have a buffer zone along them. |
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gleanerl
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Post by gleanerl on Feb 23, 2021 21:31:31 GMT -6
My best Buddy from College days did a little creek work without permission a few years ago. Before he was half done Federal department of Fisheries and Ocean showed up. In the end had to restore creek at his cost back to what it was plus $300,000 fine. Somehow though his brother a mile away did way more then him without permission at the same time with no problems on the same creek.
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