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Post by kenmb on Dec 9, 2020 22:46:22 GMT -6
Distance adds up fast. Actually have compressor in the old shop, new shop is 16' away. So hop into new shop, run down a side wall 3/4s of the way, allow for some verticals and 80ft is pretty easy of rigid pipe. 20 ft hose to get from wall to what ever I am underneath. Anyway, interesting stuff to play with. I should have enough fittings and gauges to do some tests. I considered the Bluepoint may be needing a rebuild so I checked with the Snapon truck guy last fall and it was something like half price of new to send away and look at it. So $400 or $500. At that point it is going to be a new impact instead. If I have to revamp the air to run a new air impact properly then may as well get a cordless. Performance is found in the details so will look into the air supply now.
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Post by Albertabuck on Dec 10, 2020 8:16:25 GMT -6
Two suggestions Ken, first, rig up some kind of air tank in your second shop, that will give you a localized surge supply, much the same as the tank on an older tire changer does, be close to the equivalent of having the compressor right there but not quite. Secondly, usually cheaper to send your impact in yourself to a repair shop, that is all Snap on is going to do and the dealer is going to add on his percentage. You should be able to get a kit online and do it yourself for that matter. Bluepoint is their second line, and very often was rebranded outside manufactured tools, bit of digging and you could probably find out who actually made that gun.
On another note, unfortunately right now there are lots hurting, least here in AB, some decent deals on Kijiji where some of these poor buggers are having to unload their tools. If buying a used impact gun, always look at the anvil, you want the corners nice and square, not rounded off, thats a good indicator of how much work a tool has done. Never buy one that been at a tire shop, that sucker got used more times each hour than most mechanics use theirs in a week lol.
Some of them new composite body guns are nice, very light and powerful, stick to brand names like Ingersoll IMO.
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Post by northernfarmer on Dec 10, 2020 10:03:10 GMT -6
Ken, like AB said with having a tank in the newer shop ( I wasn't picturing the system being spread over two shops ) , see if you can come by a decent sized stand up style air compressor tank that someone had their head crap out and its seemingly rather worthless to them but to you it would be just the ticket. Preferably a tank that was rated with a 175 compressor and I would have to look at my tank but thought they tended to be rated for 200 psi. Lets say you found at least a 60 or an 80 gallon tank and set it where it made sense to and that may even be up higher off the floor ( then a horizontal one might be better in that case ) . Plumb it in such a way that you have full control of the system so you can bypass that tank at will in times when you just want some air and don't want to wait for two tanks to fill and yet other times whip those ball valves over to the full system use and have lots of air volume backing you up for high demand applications. Yes, you also could do like SWMan showed with two compressors if you found something for a good price and again control of both of them so you could run them both, run one and use both tanks or run one only. Just an idea as you may say screw that and get an electric impact but as I mentioned before things like die grinders or larger blow gun type demands or if you do any sand blasting then two compressors would be a slick setup.
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Post by kenmb on Dec 10, 2020 17:43:02 GMT -6
Ok, can give you guys some real world data.
I have a pretty good sized hose coming off the compressor onto my 3/4" steel pipe. Looks like 3/4" and 3/4" fittings but didn't crawl up to look. So no issues there.
My estimate of 80' pipe is close, maybe a bit less. Step down to a 3/8" ball valve and the Milton type M couplers on the wall. And about 20' of 3/8 line to the impact. The impact is now obsolete so a pretty old Bluepoint At750b 3/4".
I t-eed in a pressure gauge, right at my ball valve and the impact connected right into the T, and about 7 psi drop. 115 psi no load, and 108 ish with trigger full on. So I don't think my system is too bad personally.
With the gauge T-eed into bottom of impact and 20' of 3/8 hose I get a 20 psi drop. 115 psi down to 95 full speed.
I rigged up the 100 lb propane tank with 3/4 gate valve, 3/4 tee and piping then reducers to get my 1/4" M fittings on. This didn't do anything for the pressure drop, still loose 20 psi at impact with the 3/8 line feeding impact off tank.
So, I would say AB is right about the 1/2" hose. If I rigged up a drop from 3/4" pipe down to 1/2" ball valve, and fittings and use the G style couplers (I have them on my 1/2" line) then I can probably get down to a 10 psi loss in the system with say 20ft 1/2" line on impact.
Next thing is my impact is probably at end of life. Never got much use and looked ok internally with no scoring but could also be just a poor performer from new. So probably will be adding a Milwaukee 3/4" to the shelf before spring. A good air impact is not cheap. Though looking for used like AB suggests is a good idea.
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Post by northernfarmer on Dec 10, 2020 20:17:21 GMT -6
Just to clarify Ken, with the current setup you have a 1/4 body M style coupler on the wall, then another 1/4 coupler at the end of that 3/8 hose to connect your tool ?. If so I am very surprised the pressure isn't dropping a lot more. Those 1/2 G couplers are a bear though for swapping tools under pressure but with that ball valve on the wall at least its not far to go to turn it off to bleed down the tool to swap out tools as required and by all means keep what coupler you have on the wall for smaller things so you don't eliminate any choices at the wall to plug into. You may find that 3/8 couplers might be a happy medium onto the tool itself as I know with testing my impact it was the jump to 1/2 line ( already had 3/8 couplers on the 3/8 line ) that did the most good vs adding the G coupler which did surprise me. But more hose crimp connections ... more couplers all in line knock off pressure flow but just "1" milton M in the system for a 3/4 impact I found was the largest drop by far.
Not familiar with how the Bluepoint is lubed in the hammer casing but its been pointed out that over lubing or just lubing the hammer system doesn't mean more power, it puts out less power but is well lubed. As to worn out impacts, I have an IR 244 which I have not used for some years now as it was not performing as well as it should and upon taking it apart I found that the cylinder bore was out of round as air forces caused accelerated wear in one area relative to the ports so that mean the vanes would have to extend and recede at every revolution and caused some loss in power. Unfortunately the cost of the parts didn't make any sense to repair it so I bought a composite IR instead to replace the old unit. But that older 244 was a good tool, in fact I twisted off the original anvil and not that it was physically worn much but just the stress of hammering on larger bolts did it in but bought another anvil and was away again for a number of years. My composite unit is so much nicer in the way of the trigger feel as you can throttle down the speed/intensity where as that old IR 244 was on or off, no middle ground at all with the way the trigger valving was designed.
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Post by kenmb on Dec 11, 2020 7:32:06 GMT -6
On the wall it is a 3/8" fitting, no step up/down for the M nipple. My hose I didn't bother looking closely at. Came to the conclusion that a 1/2" hose is better route than digging into details of my 3/8" hose. On the impact it is a 1/4" M nipple, that's all the impact will accept. Can't go larger without putting in a 1/4" pipe nipple then stepping up.
Never looked that close at the guts of the impact. I opened it up to see if I had some crap in there blocking off air flow, maybe something broken, or perhaps excessive wear. It looked ok but that is not to say I missed something obvious.
The 100 lb tank may help if it has 1/2" hose going in and out. Right now the main losses are in the 3/8" hose so adding the tank doesn't accomplish anything when the same problem item is used.
Anyway, interesting stuff to look into rather than throwing down the credit card to try and solve a problem that I haven't properly identified.
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Post by northernfarmer on Dec 11, 2020 7:56:37 GMT -6
Like the saying goes "talk is cheap" ( unless its talking to a lawyer or accountant LOL ) and easier to compare notes vs start smoking that credit card.
Ok so no air coupler at all on the wall but rather the hose barbed end screwed directly into the black pipe. However that 1/4 M coupler on your tool is a blockage and I am surprised your impact only has a 1/4 pipe inlet as the current bluepoint does list it as a 3/8 pipe but however all is not lost. I don't have the time at the moment to look but will after to confirm that I have H series 3/8 body size nipples that have 1/4 male pipe thread and when I confirm that I would then suggest to use a 3/8 body size coupler off the end of a half inch hose. But like AB pointed out shops tend to use the P style 3/8 body couplers and that may be a more common style to go with as I don't want to direct anyone to go into a coupler system they wished they had chose differently.
Also if you do upgrade the hose size off the wall I would be tempted to add a coupler on the wall so you can connect 3/8 line direct as there are other things where one wants a nice light line to handle.
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Post by kevlar on Dec 11, 2020 8:28:45 GMT -6
Have you checked the airflow yet, not just psi but actual volume? I know you checked with a gauge at your impact gun, but how long did you run it? Just wondering if you have a blockage {rust?) stuck somewhere in your line or a collapsing hose? We had the hose going from our tank to the reel blow apart one time so for a quick fix just put in a 1/4 line from a small compressor to get us by. Everything worked fine for the first maybe 5 seconds then would slow down, I guess the lines held enough volume for a quick blast but then would run out of air. Just something that crossed my mind. How long has it been like this? Just since it got cold? You said your line runs from one shop to another so there must be some line exposed to the cold where it could maybe be partially frozen?
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Post by shmiffy on Dec 11, 2020 12:39:41 GMT -6
If your flow is impeded somewhat it will show if you have a pressure gauge tee’d at the tool when you use it
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Post by northernfarmer on Dec 11, 2020 19:23:06 GMT -6
Kevlar you brought up a great point about the airline in the cold, without a doubt any line that is in the cold and doesn't have a downward slope to self drain would eventually ice up and may even ice up with a slope. Reminds me of the old John Deere shop in town as they had another smaller shop off to the side and air was run to it and not sure if they used that shop in winter as I think it was more of a spring to fall thing, anyway they said the amount of water that came flying out of their tools was horrendous and was killing some of the mechanics tools and believe that line was buried underground. Hot air flowing into a hose underground and then coming back up into another building sure wasn't working great in their situation, I had forgotten about what they were struggling with back in the day until Kevlar triggered that thought. However in saying that I believe Ken tested the pressure drop at the wall with the impact and it wasn't bad.
Ken, I just went through my bag of couplers and have not searched for the whole list of Milton couplers online for example ( these are the sample ones I have in front of me ) but I had forgotten that not only do I have the H style 3/8 body size male couplers with male 1/4 pipe thread ( Milton part number 1839 ) , I even have the 1/2 G series Milton male coupler end that has 1/4 pipe thread ( Milton part number 1855 ) . Its rather comical as the G male nipple steps down internally to physically have a 1/4 pipe thread end but the fact it exists means there are applications for it. I still think though for a lower air volume 3/4 impact gun that the last coupler ( the one on the tool ) being a 3/8 body size is not that much of an air restriction over what little one gains with a G coupler and makes it so its reasonably easy to use vs the bleed the air line G series ordeal to disconnect/connect. If I don't come across it maybe someone else on here may find sort of an air coupler goody cheat sheet list to get an idea of all the series models and their pipe thread options.
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Post by kenmb on Dec 12, 2020 10:32:26 GMT -6
Yes, the psi gauge will tell you if you have a choke point. Personally, if I have a need for a strong impact, a 5-10 sec burst is all I really need. I was in the city yesterday looking at some hoses and fittings,then realized there is a type D also, so not sure if I have D or G laying around. Also had a 25' roll of 1/2" high flex hose in my hand but I put it back till I figure out what I want to do for hose and fittings. I didn't realize 1/2" could be found that was like that. I just assumed I would be buying more of the heavy Goodyear rubber hose like the 3/8 and 1/2 I already have. Just never looked at it before. You don't know what you don't know till you look.
Yes, the impact has a restriction with the 1/4" fitting. There is some sort of check valve that comes out if I remove the 3/8" fitting that the 1/4" nipple screws into on the impact. So that's a no go. My guess is that Bluepoint may just not be a strong performer from the factory. We are talking 40-50 years of advancement since that model came off the drawing board. So I get back to the modern day question - for something that gets used a couple times a year, battery or air. A mechanic in a shop using weekly, I could see air. For a guy not using it much and not knowing where it could be used, a cordless has it's points. The 3/4" ratchet and 4 ft pipe still gets the job done, but is awkward as hell to use most times.
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Post by northernfarmer on Dec 12, 2020 11:17:46 GMT -6
I don't know ether what that check valve would be for but I guess the gist of what I was getting at with 1/4 pipe thread, its not the internal size of the pipe thread fitting that is the problem with a type M ( or other similar internal sized couplers ) but the bore diameter of those small 1/4 body size couplers as the 3/8 body size coupler with the 1/4 pipe thread is the same diameter straight through so isn't near as restrictive as those type M units. I noticed a huge flow increase just by swapping the M to the H series on my 50 foot lengths of 3/8 hose.
Ken, do you already have some 18 volt Milwaukee tools and chargers and batteries etc. Or maybe another brand but it seems the Milwaukee is the one that has the larger size/capacity impacts on the market. If you already have or are planning on having a few items from a brand of battery tools it makes it easier to swallow if you only need to buy the tool and don't need more batteries or a charger. There certainly is a plus for the battery tools in that they can go anywhere and are not tied to an air compressor. I can't comment of the performance of the Milwaukee 3/4 impact but am surprised at comments about the 1/2 working fine on trailer/truck lug nuts as I sure don't find that and a neighbour down the road has the same Milwaukee 1/2 and they said they tried it out on the highway tractor and found it had to work way too long and hard to remove just one lug nut and I found the same thing and if it was at all rusty then forget it. Having said that though, once lug nuts are loosened by hand a bit then its easy to spin them off and back on to within reasonable torque values and finish off by hand. The fact is if you only are going to use the 3/4 impact on two wheel ends a year and nothing else, I'd actually suggest the 1/2 impact as you will get a lot more all around use out of it for reasonable sized bolts. Just my thoughts though as its all about trying to get the most bang for the buck rather then have a tool sitting there collecting dust most of its life, and yet make your life easier.
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Post by kenmb on Dec 12, 2020 11:56:27 GMT -6
I suspect the M style is a big issue when talking large impacts and setting up an air system.
I have a couple Milwaukee M18 tools so adding a 3/4" impact is around $400. Can't touch a good pneumatic for under $800 unless used. I don't know how many guys pay attention to which 1/2" Milwaukee they have. I have the lower output one, and I choose it specifically because I had both in my hand when deciding and I choose the one with less torque based on weight. The 3/4" can be bought as a 1/2, same impact, just different drive end. 6 years ago a guy couldn't have a discussion what type of 3/4" or 1" impact to buy since there was no alternative. Now you can. And as Torrie noted, then you start thinking about your air system needs.
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Post by northernfarmer on Dec 12, 2020 16:55:02 GMT -6
You might find this interesting as its a whole listing of various types of couplers, the air designed units are in section A and due to what they call some of them series wise in Parker language it takes a bit to figure out what is what. The E-z-mate series of female couplers are ones that sound very interesting in that they are the ones that are able to bleed down the line after the coupler before disconnecting/reconnecting and also connect with auto push rather then the manual ones where the sleeve has to be pulled. They are expensive and that is long ago I priced one out and never did buy one. There are air pressure loss charts for various couplers as the cfm goes up and makes for some interesting comparisons and how for example doubling cfm flow drops the pressure differential psi many times rather then doubling the pressure drop like one would assume.
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Post by kenmb on Dec 13, 2020 9:19:19 GMT -6
Looks like what I should have done when setting up the air system is put 3/8" body couplers on a few drops. Then have a 1/2" hose with 3/8" body quick couplers for the impact hanging on the wall. For all other work a guy could use M style (or whatever) 1/4" quick connects on 3/8" hose. At the drop have a 3/8 to 1/4 adapter available to change it to fit the task/tool.
I finally got an electric (corded) die grinder last year, love using it. Cut down how much I use air by quite a bit. It's pretty rare that I need much for air these days since my cordless Milwaukee 1/2" impact does the same as my 1/2" air one. Bought the small Makita die grinder, also bought a fairly strong air IR die grinder to replace my crapped out one but still haven't used it. It's there if I need to get into a tight area. The small Makita works fine, but they are long compared to a right angle air unit. My old die grinder was a MAC and was an air hog, something else that probably needed a 1/2" hose.
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